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  #841  
Old 06-28-2013
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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Swain View Post
Lack of logic has made many boats excessively expensive ,complicated and impractical for cruisers.
Facts:
1. GRP boats are cheaper (as you admitted in this thread previously)
2. Even with a steel boat a grounding may kill you, so learn to navigate (although you refuse to believe the evidence)
3. An overly heavy hull that doesn't point well may not be able to beat of a lee shore and/or into a safe haven (no matter the material)
4. Steel is a great material for boatbuilding, and so is wood and GRP
5. The Pardeys have survived in wooden boats for soooo many years.
6. The test to destructions made by NASA are scientific and empirical, not just bad navigators running aground.
7. Fram was made of wood.

Seems to me that the quote should be.

"Brent Swains Lack of logic has made many boats excessively expensive, complicated and impractical for cruisers."
(Sorry about the last one, just couldn't help it)

/Joms
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  #842  
Old 06-28-2013
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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

Quote:
Originally Posted by jak3b View Post
I just had a flash.Maybe we are looking at this all wrong.We spend alot of energy avoiding reefs and ledges,containers etc.Maybe we should design our boats to intentionaly hit rocks!.It would give yacht racing a whole new flavor and excitement.Like combining a monster truck rally with the Rolex big boat series.Start by samshing into the breakwater at the St Francis yacht club,then bash into Alcatraz.then the south tower of the golden gate bridge then a fast run down to smash into Treasure Island!,whatta ya think?
The rules would definitely need to be rewritten since hitting a rounding mark means that you need to reround the mark. If the SI's said that 'rounding' now means 'hitting' the mark, without a change in the rules, would rerounding meaning going back and hitting it again? That could get really ugly!

Jeff
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  #843  
Old 06-28-2013
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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Swain View Post
Check for the books 'Around the World on Viski" by Don Shore, " Arctic Oddysy " by Len Sherman. "Northwest Passage on Ten Dollars a Day " by George Hone, and "No Fixed Address"by Clive Hamman for substantiation, unless you consider all these people and their crews liars, as determined by armchair experts who were not there, but can tell by their telepathic powers what really did or did not happen.
These are actual experiences, not abstract calculations, which have far less relevance, unless you are ready to tell NASA that they are wasting their time on testing gear to destruction, as you can give them far more accurate calculations than reality, on your computer. Perhaps you can save Ralph Nader a lot of product testing expenses, by telling him that he need only read the price tag on any item to find how good it is, or simply double the price on anything, to double the quality automatically.
One need only cruise the BC coast to find many of my boats cruising, and willing to tell you what they have expereinced in cruising them. Best get your advice on any boat, from those using them, not from those who have rarely, if ever, seen one.You dont have to cruise far to find one. What they have to say is far more valid than your armchair calculations, unless you consider anyone who disagrees with foregone, armchair conclusions, based on zero expereince in the boat being discused , to all be liars.
I dont need calculations to know that a 4 inch sch 40 stailnless pipe welded in to the deck, and a plate ten inches below it ,welded to the hull is stronger than a bolted down pot metal cleat.I dont need any calculations to know that a half inch stainless rod chock, fully welded into the steel bulwark is stronger than a bolted down "yachtie" chock on a teak rail. I donty need calculations to know that a 34 inch high, solid stainless sch 40 pipe rail is safer than knee high ""yachtie" plastic coated rails, the stanchions made out of something slightly thicker than stainless tinfoil. I don't need calculations to realise that an on epiece aluminium hatch is more waterproof, easier to use, and and tougher than a decorative teak sliding hatch and dropboards, a hairbrained arrangement. I dont need calculations to know that hands on building and cruising experience over 40 years produces a far better and more practical boat than calculatuions made by the best comnpruter whiz with minimal if any low budget ocean cruising expereince, off the beaten path. I dont need calculations to look at a 2x4 alongside a 4x4 and figure out which is the strongest.I dont need calculations to se that 3/16th aluminium block cheeks are stronger than plastic ones.I dont need calculations to see that the parts which make up a $30 block can be easily made in minutes ,out of less than $2 worth of material. Computers are no substitute for logic, and comon sense. abandoning the later and relying too much on the former, makes for many screwups.
Lack of logic has made many boats excessively expensive ,complicated and impractical for cruisers.
Ah! Another classic Swain-ism. Glad to see that you are still approaching these discussions by trying to avoid the key points and using hyperbole to change the topic rather than address the comments with a well reasoned and meaningful response. Nice try Brent.

No one said that a steel boat or its hardware cannot be strong, that its details are of questionable strength, or for that matter that a steel boat isn't stronger than a typical production coastal cruiser. And no one said that there is no one out there who enjoys owning a steel boat.

What was said, and shown in simple calculations over a decade of discussing this with you, is that pound for pound, there are other materials, which produce a much stronger boat, and that these materials may also be cheaper when taken as a whole, and which also may produce a finished boat in fewer hours than building in steel.

Go back and look at the spread sheets that I posted in our early discussions. These calculations are not theoretical and unproven. We are not talking about complex load path calculations; merely simple strength of material calcs. These are simple, time proven, highly accurate and validated calculations using formulas of a type which have existed for over a century, and which have been easily validated in the laboratory and in real life for as long as they existed.

Have a nice day,
Jeff
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  #844  
Old 06-28-2013
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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

Ski:
The SLIVER will leave the shed on July 25th and be trucked to CSR where the keel will be fitted and finishing details and rig attended to.
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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

"Bear in mind that this is the guy who considered it "Bad Seamanship " to give up a quarter knot for safety and strength! "

Come on Brent you are still making stuff up. Show me exactly where I said that. Your argument for steel is fine but your habit of inventing quotes from other people is just plain dishonest, if that means anything to you. I'd give you another crock but I can't find one big enough for all your BS.

This weekend a fleet of fragile and scary fiberglass boats will rendezvous at my beach shack for our big 2nd annual Spike Memorial Sail In. We have sailors coming from BC in their fragile grp cruising boats. I sure hope that make it and do not disintegrate on the way down. This is not invented BS. This is what is really happening. I will take some photos.
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  #846  
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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

Bob
It was in this thread where you said you consider it bad seamanship to not try to get the last quarter knot out of a boat, at all costs. Dont have time to hunt it down.
A 303 british will shoot thru 23 inches of douglas fir, weight 69 lbs per sq ft, dry, much heavier wet.. You can see that stump in Von Donop inlet, just west of the lagoon. It will barely shoot thru 3/8th inch mild steel plate, and only if solidly supported, weight 15 lbs per sq foot. Or, if you have a freind with a 303 or 308, same energy, you can try it yourself. And you say the wood is stronger? Now thats making stuff up! That takes a bit of self delusion to believe.
Haven't tried ballistics on Fibreglass . If you try it, let us know how you make out.
Jimmy Cornells book "Modern Ocean Cruising"" interviews cricumnavigators, 8 out of 10 who said they would choose a metal boat for their next boat. Several had already started metal boats ,at the time of writing. Thats a lot of ocean cruising expereince. One can call oneself a designer without ever having set foot on a boat, some do. So tell us of your extensive experience in cruising for long terms, and crossing oceans, before you first began calling yourself a designer ;Bob, Jeff?
The biggest hurdles most wanabe cruisers face are time and money, which most designers ignore competely. And they wonder why their buiness is slowing down? Should we trust their judgement on other matters? So can you give us a rundown on all the many ways you have offered to reduce the amount of time and money cruisers need to get off the treadmill, and out cruising ;Bob, Jeff?
The first 36 I built pounded on a Baja lee shore in 8 to12 ft surf for 16 days, and was pulled off thru 12 ft surf ,lifted and dropped on every wave for 1/4 mile. A wood or fibreglass boat would have broken up in minutes, but you say they are stronger than steel? Now thats making stuff up. THe sistership to Moitessiers Joshua ," Trismus" was blown ashore on Rangiroa and abandoned in 1975. Ten years later she was pulled off intact and used for shipping coconuts around. Would a wood or fibreglas boat have survived that long? And you say wood and fibreglass are stronger? Now thats making stuff up. Better hang onto your crock Bob. You are gonna need it, more than anyone else here.
You claim that cruisers dodging Fukashima debris would be better of on a boat which would have broken up quickly in those conditions? Now thats making stuff up! Wood is the weakest, most problem prone material ever used for a boat.
Someone on the origamiboats site mentioned someone who was bragging about taking 6 weeks to get a 35 ft Roberts pre cut shell together, something I have done in a week. Could the comparatively horrendously complicated building methods used in the Roberts have something to do with it? I have even had people claim that the 180 feet of chine weld on them takes no longer to cut, grind, fit, and weld than the 28 feet of chine on my 36. Now thats making stuff up!
Jeff claims that if he makes a big fibreglass hammer it can pound thru 3/16th plate more easily than a steel hammer of the same weight? Now thats making stuff up!
Yes fibreglass boats are cheap. I have encouraged people getting into cruising, to buy one to get some expeerince on one, knowing full well that they wil eventually want one of my steel boats . One just built a 36 and his fibreglass boat will soon be up for sale. Others are dreaming of owning one of my boats .One plans to upgrade form a Roberts to one of mine this fall. All the fibreglass boats have deck leaks. They are giving them away for good reason. Their designers have fallen on hard times lately. I have been turning down a lot of work lately, more than I could ever do.
Yes, when you know that you can hit most rocks without any serious damage, or ,in most cases zero damage, you tend to get a bit careless, but why would you worry about it anyway? Do you consider it good seamanship, and thus "Wise" to choose a boat which would sink in those circumstances? Seamanship begins with the choice of boat.
And you claim that a boat which can survive such incidents undamaged, is a poor choice, or not as strong as a boat which would suffer severe damage in the same incident? Now thats making stuff up! Go get your crock,Bob!
The last two trips I made home from Tonga to BC took 23 days from Hawaii, beating into strong trade winds for the first half , not exactly poor windward performance for a heavily loaded 31 footer, with all I own on board.

PS. Have you tried wooden rigging wire? Why not ,if you believe it is stronger?

Last edited by Brent Swain; 06-28-2013 at 09:18 PM.
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  #847  
Old 06-28-2013
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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

Brent: I don't know any other way to put this but you are a liar. If that is hard to understand I'll say it again. You Brent, are a liar.

Again: Brent Swain, you are a liar. You make stuff up.

You will have to show me the exact post where I said "at all costs". That is stupid. I would never say something lie that. And by making it up you look very silly and defeated. I do believe that a good sailor strives at all times to get the very best performance out of bhis boat and that is "good seamanship". But certianly not "at all costs". Are you really nuts?

The problem we have here is that you are so hyper defensive about your steel boats that you will go to any end to justify them and in doing so you look like a fool. You don't need to. You have some OK boats and you have a very clever and effective building method. I applaud you for that. Well done there Brenty boy.

But we have some serious disconnects.
Let's begin with, "Come on boys, let's go out and shoot us some yachts. Yahooooo!

No, I am not going to shoot my boats. I am not going to strangle my boats. I am in no way going to try any MMA moves on them. And dynomite is out. Any nuclear device is certainly out. I suppose given the nit wits you deal with that anything is possible but my clients are intelligent people who seldom if ever try to shoot their boat with any kind of gun.

I have a bunch of boats showing up here this weekend. It's a big party. Maybe I should set up a sand bag on my railing, get my stool and my rifle and plunk them as they come alongside. I mean, just to see what would happen.

I think I have it. You have run out of all logical arguments so you are going to try to invent a new one. Guns vs boats! That's very Swainy.

You crack me up. You are kind of like one of those Sunday morning TV evangelists, except I bet your hair is bad.

I'm here almost all the time Brent. If you would like a one on one and a discussion about truth come on down.
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  #848  
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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

As I suggested in the wooden mast discussion, I soaked a bit of fir in a very salty brine for a week, dried it out then glued it together with epoxy. The salt had zero effect on the strength of the glue line, that I could detect. Commercially available wood preservatives leave an oily surface, which no glue can stick to.
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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

Bob
I never suggested you shoot any boat. I suggest you go out to a remote place and try a shot at a 23 inch diameter fir log, then try it on a piece of 3/8th inch mild steel plate, and compare the two for impact resistance, similar to the impact of a sharp rock, then determine who is the liar when stating that wood is stronger. ( reality vs numbers jugling)
Yes. I believe that my boats are far superior to stock plastic and wood boats for full time cruising.
No, I dont believe one should give preference to a designer who doesn't believe strongly in what he is designing.
Yes, I would like to read of your vast ocean cruising expereince, which you had before you began designing for others ( or since for that matter). I notice you make no comment on that. Wonder why?
Caught a good Southeasterly in here, waiting for a good northwesterly to get me to the good swimmin on Cortes. No, I dont spend my time in an urban office. I spend it out cruising, in the real world. Keeps a guy in reality, away from the fantasy land of number jugling.
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  #850  
Old 06-28-2013
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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

Did you learn to lie while you were out cruising Brent?
You are very good at it.
Please address your lie first. Then we can proceed.
As it stand now, you lie.

You might choose to look at numbers of boats out cruising the world.
I beat you many times over and over and over. And I do it with nice looking boats.

How about this:
You post a photo of your very best , most beautiful "yacht" that has ever sailed around the Horn and I will do the same. I'll post , maybe a few, no that's not fair. I'll pick one boat that has sailed aroun the Horn.

I'm terrible. I'll kick your bacon all over the Salish Sea.
I'm a bad man.
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Last edited by bobperry; 06-29-2013 at 12:03 AM.
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