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  #861  
Old 06-30-2013
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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

Fuzzy one:
Yeah, I was corrected on that last night by one pf the people at the Spike Sail In. Funny thing is that Don Bradman didn't sound right at all. Don Bradley sounded fine.

Been gone now 56 years.

We had a great get together this weekend in honor of Spike. Probably around 30 sailors showed up. We had four fragile and dangerous GRP boats on moorings in from of my beach shack. I did not shoot at any boats. Some people drove up. We had a big dinner with two BBQ's going and ended the evening playing music well into the night.
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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Swain View Post
Bob
I never suggested you shoot any boat. I suggest you go out to a remote place and try a shot at a 23 inch diameter fir log, then try it on a piece of 3/8th inch mild steel plate, and compare the two for impact resistance, similar to the impact of a sharp rock, then determine who is the liar when stating that wood is stronger. ( reality vs numbers jugling)
Yes. I believe that my boats are far superior to stock plastic and wood boats for full time cruising.
No, I dont believe one should give preference to a designer who doesn't believe strongly in what he is designing.
Yes, I would like to read of your vast ocean cruising expereince, which you had before you began designing for others ( or since for that matter). I notice you make no comment on that. Wonder why?
Caught a good Southeasterly in here, waiting for a good northwesterly to get me to the good swimmin on Cortes. No, I dont spend my time in an urban office. I spend it out cruising, in the real world. Keeps a guy in reality, away from the fantasy land of number jugling.
Heat wave forecast. Wunnerful!
Another classic. This assumes that since you personally do not understand the science, the science must be "juggled". But even debating on the gut reaction level of go out and shoot something, I will go back to points raised in earlier discussions on this topic.

As I have said before, if the prime criteria for selecting a material for a one-off, custom built boat is low cost, speed of construction and impact resistance steel is not a bad way to go, but if you factor in inherent hull weight, then there are better ways to go.

Take impact resistance for example, you use the example of shooting bullets at steel vs wood. To begin with, in the hull construction examples that I have cited in past discussions, the wooden construction would have a Kevlar sheathing. Kevlar has come down in price so in earlier discussions I have shown that you could, buy the plywood, Kevlar laminate and epoxy resin to build a hull deck and much of the interior for less than the cost of steel hull in one of your boats.

When it comes to impact resistance, as I have also shown in the past discussions,there is a pretty big difference between a high speed, small area impact like a bullet vs a slow speed impact like a sailboat hitting a rock ledge. In the case of a high speed projectile, Kevlar has become the standard armor material, replacing steel in helmets,body armor,and vehicles offering a combination of better stopping power and much lighter weight. And this selection of kevlar by the military is by group whose methods of testing and real life experience is far more rigouous and percise that plinking at random pieces of steel and old stumps in the wilderness.

In fairness, steel does do much better in low speed impact where it does a good job distributing the impact to a larger area than it does in a high speed projectile style impact. But even in low speed impacts, Kevlar composites or kevlar over wood composites still offer better puncture resistance when compared by weight.

And while you may not care about the relative weight of your hulls, to me any hull weight savings can be used for some mix of being able to carry more supplies and extend range, or more ballast and increse stability, or reduce weight to allow better performance.

As I have also pointed out, the composite skin could be continuous to avoid leaks. I mentioned an acquaintance who developed a technique for blind fastening fittings without having a fastening opening for water to penetrate.

But lastly there is no reason that a custom boat builder can't cherry pick ideas, doing a composite hull with custom fabricated fittings made from scavanged or salvaged materials in much the same way that you also advocate.

What you are getting called out on in this discussion is the all or nothing approach you advocate, and you unwillingness to address the specifics of these types of discussions, instead putting forth asymmetric arguments that sound good but which do not make sense when compared on a more even balanced analysis.

Respectfully,
Jeff
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Last edited by Jeff_H; 06-30-2013 at 08:21 PM.
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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

Brent:
Check out this list:
OIlin Stephens
Phil Rhodes
John Alden
German Frers
Bruce Farr
Bill Lapworth
Gary Mull

I coud go on but I'll stop there.

Then just for the hell of it lets ad those two young whippersnappers
Chuck Paine
Bob Perry

Walk down any dock in any marina in north America and mention those names to any sailor and they wil have heard those names and most probably have some knowledge of each designer's work.

All of those designers have one thing in common. They are learned their craft working in what you call an "urban office". They did it the old fashioned way, working for older men who were experts at the craft. I suppose any of them could have taken off and gone cruising but they didn't. They wanted to be yacht designers and they knew the path to get to a level where they could open their own offices and it wasn't out cruising. Some technical education in yacht design was and is required. Those guys on my list are pretty well known today. Some are quite famous.

Now walk down a dock and mention Brent Swain and I am pretty darn sure you will just get a blank stare back.
" Who?"
Sorry but this is the real world. You wanted "real"

Maybe you should have taken the time to get some professional training as a yacht designer. You might be comfortable with numbers now and not stumble over the technical side of yacht design saying stupid things. Numbers are our common vocabulary when discussing many of the design features of any boat A good designer has be happy and confident working with the numbers. If you are uicomfortable with numbers you are really going to struiggle with any analysis of stability. I did my first stability study by hand. Maybe Brent, you would have had some training in how to design a pleasant looking deck house.

But you did it your way and it shows in your handful of boats. I did it my way and I think it shows in my body of work and numerous very succesful designs. I followed the path set down by a lot of the men I looked up to in this field from the time I was a boy. Really, I did it "their way" and I am grateful to the men who hired me and mentored me as I worked to learn the craft. If I had to do it over again I would do it exactly the same way. It has worked quite well for me.
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Last edited by bobperry; 06-30-2013 at 07:58 PM.
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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

Quote:
Originally Posted by wolfenzee View Post
I wish I still had the results but I ready an article by a structural engineer who took all the materials used in boat building and after exhaustive comparison the final conclusions for the ideal boat building materiel was WOOD.
Wolf: check out chapter 47 of Dave Gerr's book "The Nature of Boats". The subtitle is "Insights and Esoterica for the Nautically Obsessed". My wife saw it in the store and immediately bought it for me.

The title of chapter 47 is "Believe it or not, wood is best". Other chapters talk in depth about new space-age boat building materials, but in the end Dave comes to the conclusion (backed by tables, charts and other un-Brent-like evidence) that pound for pound, wood is the best. Read in conjunction with Jeff's writings on the subject here, its a mini-master's degree in boat building! If you never find the study you reference, Dave's is right in this book.

There are many subjects covered in this book, all them patiently explained in relatively non-technical terms for those of us who love boats and wonder why they are designed and built in the various ways that they are. Highly recommended.

btw, I love this thread. I learn something, and its entertaining!
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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

Wood boat construction?
It's a fad.
It will never stand the test of time.
But just in case it proves OK in a few years, here are three woodies of mine. A handsome trio of fine timber yachts.

Oh yeah, on The schooner, we didn't want to risk the rig on something as exerimental as Spruce so the spars you see in that photo, masts, gaffs and booms are all carbon fiber.
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Last edited by bobperry; 06-30-2013 at 07:54 PM.
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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

Those fellas you mentioned did a wee bit of sailing also.Alders and Olin, those guys.Ah but imagine how much better they would have felt in a good metal boat.
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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

I once worked for an old wooden boatbuilder who told me "A friend wanted me to go in to bulding steel tugs ,but I didnt think those steel tugs would ever catch on"
Friends cruising Mexico and the South Pacific say many of the boats he encounters has a copy of my book on board. My name is well known among most of them, far more so here on the BC coast.
Jeff , when your criteria are low cost, speed of construction, and impact resistance, could you put together your wood and kevlar hull and decks for a 36 for $9K worth of materials, in less that a week with only one skilled worker and one unskilled, working in a backyard, which I have done for a 36? How far could you get in that time with $9K worth of materials? Would it survive a sledge hammer for as long as you cared to pound, as one of my boats will?
I found the statement about wood being as strong as steel, hilarious. Thank you for posting that. It points out clearly how far removed from reality some numbers jugglers can be. Now its up to you to tell the military that they will have to start making battle ships, aircraft carriers, tugs ,submarines and tanks out of wood as it is stronger and has more impact resistance. Then you could also do wooden gun barrels . I think they would find it as hilarious as I do. Anything less than your passing this "Breaktrhu knowledge "along to them would be treason!
When I guy discovers a way to reduce the time to get a steel shell together by 90% doesnt try to monopolize the knowledge, but trains others how to do his job, then sends enough work for one of his students to build himself two boats and build a house , forgoing all that income to go cruising , what does Smackdaddy call him ?
Selfish!
Smackdaddys credibility?
ZERO!
When he writes a book telling others how to do it ( His trade secrets) and charges the lowest price for any marine book for it , what does Smackdaddy call him?
Selfish!
Smackdaddys credibility?
ZERO!
When he charges $350 for a set of plans for a 36, while other designers charge many times that what does Smackdaddy call him?
Selfish!
Smacks credibility?
ZERO!
When he spends many years on chatlines ,offering far more affordable solutions to their problems, free of charge, at no benefit to himself , and trying to convince cruisers that using their heads instead of their pocket books to solve problems in order to maximize their cruisng play time, will get better results,what does Smack call him?
Selfish!
Smacks credibility?
ZERO!
When he offers to give his book revenues to a shelter for abused women, donates much to such shelters, out of a minimal income, gets a cop fired for advocating an abuser try a ballistic solution on his victim, at some risk and no benefit for himself,
and beats up the odd wife abuser, and helps his victims out, again at no benefit to himself, and some risk what does Smack call him?
Selfish!
Smacks credibility?
ZERO!
When he posts on several sites how to build a beter sheet block for $2 than most are paying $30 or more for, What doies Smack call him?
Selfish.
Smacks credibuility?
Zero!
What has Smack contributed to dealing with the two biggest hurdles to getting off the treadmill and going cruising?
Zero!
What is his approach to those without a lot of money trying to get off the treadmill?
Discouragement, cynicism and obstructionism, along with a lot of elitist guilt tripping.

A freind did search for best boats to buy. The Valiant 40 they repeatedly said it was one of the worst for osmosis and balsa core rot, something we dont have problems with on steel boats . Bob. Why woud they use something which rots, over high density foam, which doesnt . I dont get it.

More to come. Time for another swim then a night sail to more swimmin, for the rest of the summer.. Life is rough
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Last edited by Brent Swain; 06-30-2013 at 08:47 PM.
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Old 06-30-2013
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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

Actually, Brent, it's 0.012.

And my ego is more puncture-resistant than one of your boats. Heh-heh.

Brent, here's the absolute truth: Your solutions for the 99%er who just wants to cruise ARE NOT cheaper. They are WAY more expensive, complex, and time consuming. Period.

If the goal, as you say, is to "step off the treadmill" and cruise, that 99%er would be WAY better off buying a used fiberglass boat in good shape, getting some lessons and time on the helm, then just heading off. Your trying to refute this with a "$35K" home-made steel boat is ludicrous.

However, if the ACTUAL goal of that 99%er is to build a steel boat so that he/she can go through the NW Passage or hit rocks and reefs at will - then your solutions make perfect sense.

It all depends on whether that 99%er wants to cruise affordably or build a tank.

All that said, your blocks, windlasses, etc. are definitely an ingenious use of recycled materials as long one doesn't mind the aesthetic challenges. But that's a different cup of herring than getting onto an affordable boat in a short amount of time and cruising.

As for my contribution on "cruising affordably"? Well, we just bought a fast, well-equipped, beautiful 40' sailboat for just $7K more than your "$35K steel boat"...the one we would have been building in our backyard for the next several years. See we're already cruising - not welding.

Oh, and where the hell did I say you were "selfish for beating up odd wife abusers at no benefit to yourself"? Man, you come up with some doozies! Credibility anyone?

(This message brought to you by Smackdaddy AKA Mr. Incredible.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Swain View Post
I once worked for an old wooden boatbuilder who told me "A friend wanted me to go in to bulding steel tugs ,but I didnt think those steel tugs would ever catch on"
Friends cruising Mexico and the South Pacific say many of the boats he encounters has a copy of my book on board. My name is well known among most of them, far more so here on the BC coast.
Jeff , when your criteria are low cost, speed of construction, and impact resistance, could you put together your wood and kevlar hull and decks for a 36 for $9K worth of materials, in less that a week with only one skilled worker and one unskilled, working in a backyard, which I have done for a 36? How far could you get in that time with $9K worth of materials? Would it survive a sledge hammer for as long as you cared to pound, as one of my boats will?
I found the statement about wood being as strong as steel, hilarious. Thank you for posting that. It points out clearly how far removed from reality some numbers jugglers can be. Now its up to you to tell the military that they will have to start making battle ships, aircraft carriers, tugs ,submarines and tanks out of wood as it is stronger and has more impact resistance. Then you could also do wooden gun barrels . I think they would find it as hilarious as I do. Anything less than your passing this "Breaktrhu knowledge "along to them would be treason!
When I guy discovers a way to reduce the time to get a steel shell together by 90% doesnt try to monopolize the knowledge, but trains others how to do his job, then sends enough work for one of his students to build himself two boats and build a house , forgoing all that income to go cruising , what does Smackdaddy call him ?
Selfish!
Smackdaddys credibility?
ZERO!
When he writes a book telling others how to do it ( His trade secrets) and charges the lowest price for any marine book for it , what does Smackdaddy call him?
Selfish!
Smackdaddys credibility?
ZERO!
When he charges $350 for a set of plans for a 36, while other designers charge many times that what does Smackdaddy call him?
Selfish!
Smacks credibility?
ZERO!
When he spends many years on chatlines ,offering far more affordable solutions to their problems, free of charge, at no benefit to himself , and trying to convince cruisers that using their heads instead of their pocket books to solve problems in order to maximize their cruisng play time, will get better results,what does Smack call him?
Selfish!
Smacks credibility?
ZERO!
When he offers to give his book revenues to a shelter for abused women, donates much to such shelters, out of a minimal income, gets a cop fired for advocating an abuser try a ballistic solution on his victim, at some risk and no benefit for himself,
and beats up the odd wife abuser, and helps his victims out, again at no benefit to himself, and some risk what does Smack call him?
Selfish!
Smacks credibility?
ZERO!
When he posts on several sites how to build a beter sheet block for $2 than most are paying $30 or more for, What doies Smack call him?
Selfish.
Smacks credibuility?
Zero!
What has Smack contributed to dealing with the two biggest hurdles to getting off the treadmill and going cruising?
Zero!
What is his approach to those without a lot of money trying to get off the treadmill?
Discouragement, cynicism and obstructionism, along with a lot of elitist guilt tripping.

A freind did search for best boats to buy. The Valiant 40 they repeatedly said it was one of the worst for osmosis and balsa core rot, something we dont have problems with on steel boats . Bob. Why woud they use something which rots, over high density foam, which doesnt . I dont get it.

More to come. Time for another swim then a night sail to more swimmin, for the rest of the summer.. Life is rough
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Last edited by smackdaddy; 06-30-2013 at 09:20 PM.
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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobperry View Post
Fuzzy one:
Yeah, I was corrected on that last night by one pf the people at the Spike Sail In. Funny thing is that Don Bradman didn't sound right at all. Don Bradley sounded fine.

Been gone now 56 years.

We had a great get together this weekend in honor of Spike. Probably around 30 sailors showed up. We had four fragile and dangerous GRP boats on moorings in from of my beach shack. I did not shoot at any boats. Some people drove up. We had a big dinner with two BBQ's going and ended the evening playing music well into the night.
That's OK Maestro, Bradman doesn't sound right to me either, he never did. Great batsman but other than that a wrong'un .... my opinion only.
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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

jak:
You bet they did. As I did. I sailed four days a week in local racing. I race in every kind of boat from an OK dinghy, to a Star, to a Lightning, to a Raven, to an Internatiol 14, to a Thistle and the little dink that got me started, the Penguin, a Phil Rhodes design. I could list more but I hate typing. Trust me that I sailed a lot of different boats. I would get crew jobs on any big boat that would have me and I sailed in the summertime 4 days a week. Racing was really the way to get to know how a boat performed. If you have never done any serious racing you are most probably a hacker. Sorry but that's just the reality.

Shitski!
I can't even figure out what Brent is arguing about anymore. The closest I can come to is that we should not shoot trees.

$350 for a whole set of plans? I don't think Brent and I work in the same market. Do you stand by the freeway offramp with a sign Brent? "Plans for food".
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