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  #871  
Old 06-30-2013
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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

Quote:
Shitski!
I can't even figure out what Brent is arguing about anymore. The closest I can come to is that we should not shoot trees.
Never been called that before, but if I can ski on it, I will!

Not sure it is worth my time, money not that I have any, or effort to argue with Brent frankly! Nothing makes any sense to me.........as sgt Shultz would say, " I know NUTHING!"

Marty
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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

Ski:
Yep, I think we have reached that level. Over on Crusing Anarchy right about now we would start posting photos of naked women. It's kind of a centering device. Brings you back to reality.
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  #873  
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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

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Originally Posted by bobperry View Post
Ski:
Yep, I think we have reached that level. Over on Crusing Anarchy right about now we would start posting photos of naked women. It's kind of a centering device. Brings you back to reality.
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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

Some nekid women would liven up this here thread, get us away from BRent and his far right or left idea's........he may be so far left or right that he is behind center plate, which is not always the best place to be! That is my story, and I am sticken to it!.....

It was hot today, out working in it for 5-6 hrs, about 8 saturday, probably another 8 tomorrow...........tuesday clean up the boat, then on the water for a day or two or three. SJF looks interesting with some SC warnings in the after noon, oh well, a reach across should be fun! oar ez et PHUN!
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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

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Originally Posted by bobperry View Post
jak:
You bet they did. As I did. I sailed four days a week in local racing. I race in every kind of boat from an OK dinghy, to a Star, to a Lightning, to a Raven, to an Internatiol 14, to a Thistle and the little dink that got me started, the Penguin, a Phil Rhodes design. I could list more but I hate typing. Trust me that I sailed a lot of different boats. I would get crew jobs on any big boat that would have me and I sailed in the summertime 4 days a week. Racing was really the way to get to know how a boat performed. If you have never done any serious racing you are most probably a hacker. Sorry but that's just the reality.

Shitski!
I can't even figure out what Brent is arguing about anymore. The closest I can come to is that we should not shoot trees.

$350 for a whole set of plans? I don't think Brent and I work in the same market. Do you stand by the freeway offramp with a sign Brent? "Plans for food".
No reason to apologize!.I hear ya.I started out on a little 7' cat boat, A rookie they were called,A spent my whole summers on the water racing,I sailed in 110,s,lasers,A friend bought an old Star boat.There wasnt an active class anymore in Cohasset.But it was sure fun to sail,Crewed in some 210,s and did a little frost biting,VERY LITTLE.I have never liked the cold,which is why I live on the left coast now.Wow, memories.There was another old old Star rotting in barn I wanted so bad.I was 12 or 13 at the time.I was going to put a little cabin on it and sail to Maine.
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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

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Originally Posted by bobperry View Post
Wood boat construction?
It's a fad.
It will never stand the test of time.
But just in case it proves OK in a few years, here are three woodies of mine. A handsome trio of fine timber yachts.

Oh yeah, on The schooner, we didn't want to risk the rig on something as exerimental as Spruce so the spars you see in that photo, masts, gaffs and booms are all carbon fiber.
Bob - do you know what the specific paint was that was used on those carbon spars on the schooner? I want to paint (repaint) the spars on my Fortune that colour but haven't been able to find the right shade in the colour charts.
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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

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Originally Posted by Brent Swain View Post
Jeff , when your criteria are low cost, speed of construction, and impact resistance, could you put together your wood and kevlar hull and decks for a 36 for $9K worth of materials, in less that a week with only one skilled worker and one unskilled, working in a backyard, which I have done for a 36? How far could you get in that time with $9K worth of materials? Would it survive a sledge hammer for as long as you cared to pound, as one of my boats will?
Brent,
First of all, when I mentioned "low cost, speed of construction, and impact resistance" as primary design criteria, that was my attempt at paraphrasing my understanding of what seemed to be your consistent primary concerns in all of these discussions over the years. My primary concerns would include exceptional sailing ability, ease of handling, seaworthiness, seakindliness, and appealing aesthetics, and that would preclude steel for boats of a size that would appeal to me.

But that aside, as you should probably recall from our earlier detailed discussion on this, and the spreadsheet and reference notes that I provided at that time. In that earlier exchange, I had taken one of your Origami designs and had calculated the sheet sizes and weight of steel, welding rod, etc. involved in building it, and gotten a local, delivered price for those materials.

I did the same for the plywood, kevlar, glass and resin to build the same boat stitch and glue. They were close in price with the plywood composite construction being slightly less expensive.

On that spreadsheet, I had also gone to a welding manual and showed the rate of speed that an average professional welder could cut and weld the hull of that boat in steel and had put together a similar estimate of number of hours for the plywood composite boat built to a similar simple level of finish.

As you may recall from that analysis, you were right that you could 'pull together a steel hull faster. But when you factored in the time to prep and paint the steel boat, and that the wood composite version had more of its interior in place, the difference in time was negligible, and if there were layouts for cutting out the interior components, it looked like the wood composite version could be ready to go cruising slightly faster than the steel version.

And, yes, if constructed with kevlar and plywood skin of an equal weight to your steel hull skin, I would expect the composite hull to stand up equally well to being beaten by a sledge hammer for as long as you would like.

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Originally Posted by Brent Swain View Post
I found the statement about wood being as strong as steel, hilarious. Thank you for posting that. It points out clearly how far removed from reality some numbers jugglers can be. Now its up to you to tell the military that they will have to start making battle ships, aircraft carriers, tugs ,submarines and tanks out of wood as it is stronger and has more impact resistance. Then you could also do wooden gun barrels . I think they would find it as hilarious as I do. Anything less than your passing this "Breaktrhu knowledge "along to them would be treason!
Brent:
You really need to read more carefully, what was actually said was a wood/ kevlar composite hull would be stronger than a steel hull of an equal weight. But the military does not need me to tell them about composites. The latest US Navy front line ships are being constructed using primarily composite construction. They are doing this as a cost savings in terms of life cost, strength to weight, performance and the ability to protect the crew in battle.
Naval Composite Ship Program Moves Ahead

As to gun barrels, they are made from steel for material behavior reasons that has nothing to do strength concerns. Steel conducts heat much more effectively than composites. In the case of a gun barrel, one of the prime concerns is being able to keep it cool and there steel is more effective than composites.

On the other hand, on a cruising boat, the ability of a composite hull to reduce heat flow through the skin is a good thing making it more comfortable below than a steel boat, assuming equal weight and equal external insulation levels.

Respectfully,
Jeff
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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

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Originally Posted by SloopJonB View Post
Bob - do you know what the specific paint was that was used on those carbon spars on the schooner? I want to paint (repaint) the spars on my Fortune that colour but haven't been able to find the right shade in the colour charts.
I am not attempting to guess at the color on Bob's schooner but in the past the color that I have used for spars that are supposed to look traditional is a color called Grand Banks Beige. My take is that does not look like wood, but it does look appropriate for traditional painted spars.

Petit made the color in Easypoxy at one time and I have been pleased with it in the past. Interlux makes a color with the same name in Brightsides, but looking at color chips it appears to have a slightly greener tint. You might want to order a larger chip than the color charts at the store to see whether either is what you are looking for.

Jeff
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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

I don't know what color that is. I just call it "buff".
We lookede into a faux wood paint job for the spars and Hall Spars advised against it. They said the problem was that "everyone has their own idea what wood looks like". The faux wood spars I have seen do not appeal to me. It's CF not wood, let it be painted anyway you like but not faux wood.
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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

Went up to Lundenburg when I was researching "last boat". If Brent opened his mind and saw the work done by modern wooden boat builders suspect he'd walk away with a different opinion.
Similarly a visit to the Kanter yard might change his mind as to the possibilities in metal. Right near me is New England Boatworks if he wants to see whatsup in building with high tech materials.
When looking at folks with different backgrounds who sometimes say or do things which are not congruent with reality my peers often use the saying "They don't know what they don't know". Afraid this is the case here.
Agree sometimes the latest and greatest doesn't mean better in actual usage. A point Wolfie has made in the past. Personally, went with a solid, grp hull knowing I expect to voyage. Thinking was easier to maintain and importantly easier to repair without requiring the level of equipment/skill that may not be found where I may be. Also easier for me given my knowledge level to know if effective repair was made and make repairs/maintain myself. I don't carry a Miller-matic on the boat. Do carry glass, resin and epoxy.
When doing detailed budgeting for wood/epoxy, cold molded, strip plank, steel, aluminum, cored, solid glass, high tech composite, one off, production, semi custom and analyzing annual costs with residual value think I made the right choice for us. The quality of life aboard my boat is actually as good or better than in my 4000+sqft house. That's a statement I think few in Brent boats can make and we will be sailing into our senescence (g-d willing and the creek don't rise ).
In short, you can have a smart phone and choose to not download a zillion apps but to still be functioning in an analogue world is to not accept the world as moved on. Believe he is a Luddite even in the metal boat world.
P.S.- read an article from the owner of the Waterline shop in a trade rag. Very interesting discussion of the realities Brent refuses to accept. Wife tossed out all the bathroom reading so can't give a citation. Basically, steel is very viable as a boat building material at 40+ft. but needs to designed by a NA skilled in it's use and a yard skilled in it's construction. The issue isn't steel it's the denial of basic physics.
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