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  #901  
Old 07-02-2013
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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobperry View Post
jak:
You bet they did. As I did. I sailed four days a week in local racing. I race in every kind of boat from an OK dinghy, to a Star, to a Lightning, to a Raven, to an Internatiol 14, to a Thistle and the little dink that got me started, the Penguin, a Phil Rhodes design. I could list more but I hate typing. Trust me that I sailed a lot of different boats. I would get crew jobs on any big boat that would have me and I sailed in the summertime 4 days a week. Racing was really the way to get to know how a boat performed. If you have never done any serious racing you are most probably a hacker. Sorry but that's just the reality.

Shitski!
I can't even figure out what Brent is arguing about anymore. The closest I can come to is that we should not shoot trees.

$350 for a whole set of plans? I don't think Brent and I work in the same market. Do you stand by the freeway offramp with a sign Brent? "Plans for food".
So do tell us what you charge for plans for a 36 footer.
I always tell people who want a cheap boat to check out the used fibreglas market, they do, some use a fg boat for a while. After experiencing one, 90% end up wanting one of mine. I have had zero credible, affordable competition in this area for a while now, in well built steel boats.
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  #902  
Old 07-02-2013
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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

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Originally Posted by bobperry View Post
Maybe I already did that. I am meeting with this client, Emil Doperya, in two weeks to decide where we go next. Emil's Dad and Uncle invented the Dobro. Emil has one circumnavigation under his belt. He likes my work.
Does this mean the project may be resurrected ? I remember back then it was shelved due to cost and the client went out and bought themselves a GrandBanks. While the design is a long way from most people''s dream boat for cold wet weather she does it for me.

The only part of her I didn't quite get was the aft deck. I'd have liked that to have been more of a cockpit though I'm sure we could reach agreement if I was to float the necessary sheckels past your window.

ps - talking of dogs, reminds me of a certain feline .... how goes Pumpkin ?
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Old 07-02-2013
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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

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Originally Posted by Brent Swain View Post
So do tell us what you charge for plans for a 36 footer.
I always tell people who want a cheap boat to check out the used fibreglas market, they do, some use a fg boat for a while. After experiencing one, 90% end up wanting one of mine. I have had zero credible, affordable competition in this area for a while now, in well built steel boats.
Ok, so I've had one FG boat since 1981, literally from new mind you! Its even been aground once or twice........altho on on a reef mind you! I built two wood ones, would not want to know how fricken heavy the 8' pram would have been, wood was 75 or so lbs! 750 for a steel/iron one?

Altho, I do admit, Invictous is one hell of a nice looking steel hulled boat! it also has some plastic type materials in it too. altho at 220 or so feet long......takes a crew of 5-10 to run the thing.......12 or so statrooms, not to mention the crew qtrs or captains bunk........I don't think you could even come close to designing this creature for $350! Hell, I can not even design a typical landscape for that amount! much less install it! dude, get a life!

now where are them nekid women!

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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

A friend of mine is a retired chief merhant seaman.around 2008 he was chief engineer on a Horizon container ship. They were off the coast of Oregon and in a major winter gale. They were navigating there way through the storm to try to by pass the worst of it.It was a freak storm that got much worse than forcast.During the worst of it a huge wave came over the bow and green water came all the way down the length of the ship.It smashed out the pilot house windows,bent the 'eyebrow' around the bridge back flat.The brigde was flooded, the power went down and they lost steering.My friend told me in 30+ years in the merchant marine he had never been scared till then.They had to steer the ship from an auxilery system way below deck.They communicated with the old man with walky talkys.The bridge on this ship is about 15 stories above sea level.That gives you an idea of the size of the seas.All the steel that ever came from Pitzburg couldnt save you if arent just dumb lucky.I knew of a steel fish boat
left Gloucester and just vanished, no bad weather,just gone, poof.The Gloucester pilot boat, The Can Do went down in the blizzard of '78 , between Bakers Island and Salem harbor,A 49' steel motor vessel lost with all hands in sight of land. Read 10 HOURS TILL DAWN by Michael J. Tougias. Sure steel might last longer bashing it with a sledge hammer or pounding in the surf but to think it will save your bacon no matter what is just naive.Shyte happens.Ive been on boats and sailing before I could walk or talk.No I havent sailed across the pacific but I spent years sailing in an area with ledges ,rocks, and shallow water and fog.In 50 years Ive experienced hitting 1 ledge and running aground once.The solution is good navigation and piloting.Dont hit rocks in the first place.Its really not that difficult.The basics I learned as a 10 year old, keep a good look out, always be aware of the weather and where you are have kept me and others in good stead.Noel and Litara Barret have sailed over 100,000 miles in wood boats, including Antartica,South Georgia,Cape Horn and Greenland,Iceland etc,Same with Tim and Pauline Carr in a 30 foot Falmoth Punt.They wintered for several years in South Georgia and then sailed home.I dont worry to much about hitting stuff in the Ocean.I compare the odds to the danger of where I live.Today I drove through San Francisco across the Bay Bridge through Oakland, The most dangerous city in the US now,to Berkely Marine. I survived cell phone drivers, idiots,crazies,shootouts and a Bart Strike but hey Im OK.
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Old 07-02-2013
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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

Brent:
Be careful with the "extreme ugliness" call. We have seeen your work.

"They all have one thing in common. They alll leave the helmsman in an open cockpit as the only steeriing option; bad seamanship, of the most naive and pretentious kind ." Brent Swain.
Brent you continue to amaze me with what you don't know.

And as for all those designers on my list leaving the helmsman unprotected, that just shows ignorance of their work. I could list designs wth protected cockpits by all of thse designers but I won't. Reality means little to you so why waste my time.

"What do you charge for plans for a 36'er?
Well Brent, that would depend on if we are talking about a custom design or one of my existing designs. For a new custom design I would charge $120 USD an hour to prepare the design and I would estimate the total cost of design at between 8.5% and 10% of the total build cost. So, if we are talking about working with a good yard I'd estimate the design fee at $34,000 USD. This price can increase if the client wants fulll 3D renderings of the interior layout. We are doing that more and more these days.

If we are talking about an existing design I would try to make sure it was a new design of mine so it represented what I am doing today and I would probably charge $10,000 USD. I would assume that I would be doing some custom work to the design for that buyer. If the buyer is not willing to spend $10,000 for the desig then I don't think he wil be willing to build the boat to my standard of finish. I value my design work highly and I will not sell it cheap. I honestly can't remember that last set of "stock plans" I sold. I think my pricing eliminates most home builders. It's not my market.

If an owner of one of my designs wants plans of his boat for reference I will sell him a full set for betweem $350 and $500 depending on how many drawings are involved. But this is not for building a boat.

But, fact is I don't want to work with home builders unless I know them well and they have proven they can build a boat to my standard. I am working with one right now. It's his second boat to my plans. He is a master craftsman. The first was a 44'er that he cruised extensively and the new boat is a 28' motor sailer, twin rudders, square top main and a fast hull with a lifting bulb keel. It's a custom design. I prefer to work with established, quality yards.

Jak:
You can get some really good BBQ in Oakland. And YOSHI's down in Jack London Square is a great sushi bar and jazz club.
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Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat-bob-marks-window2.jpg   Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat-catarijulyo34.jpg   Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat-cockpit19.jpg  
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Last edited by bobperry; 07-02-2013 at 10:30 AM.
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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

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Originally Posted by Brent Swain View Post
Benteau would be extremy wise to hire them for their aesthetic genius, to eliminate the extreme uglines of Beneteaus ( and other similar boats, like Hunters, Jeneaus, etc
The pot calling the kettle black comes to mind.....
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  #907  
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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

Those three photos I posted show work on the 60' ketch at Pacific Seacraft. The first pic is me sketching on the mockup the layout of the windows in the aft bulkhead. I think it is important aesthetically to have those windows follow the lines of the house top and deck structure so they look harmonious while provicde the visibility forward needed.

The second photo is an early rendering of the piot house done in 3D so we could work out the details of the pilot house. That rendering is not obsolete.

The third photo is another very early rendering of the aft cockpit. This view is also obsolete now but I think it's interestuing to see the evolution of the design and the effort made to get a beautiful final result.

These newer photos are of the final PH shape and the CNC cut foam mold used to laminate the PH. If you look closely you can see a drip groove running accross the aft end of the PH overhang.

Actually that second image is obsolete but I'll leave it there to illustrate how we use these 3D models. With that rendering and some work on the mock up we decided that the camber accross the front windows was too flat. So playing with the 3D model we increased the camber until we achieved the look we were after. The fourth photo shows the final result. The change is subtle but effective.

I think these renderings clearly show at least one way my approach to design differs from Brent's.
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Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat-psc-pilot-house-07-01-2013.jpg   Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat-catarijulyo28.jpg   Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat-catarijulyo29.jpg   Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat-new-ph.jpg  
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Last edited by bobperry; 07-02-2013 at 08:48 AM.
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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

Was surprised how hard it is to do a hard dodger "right". Needs to blend into the boat to not be an eye sore. For us needed to be the right height so sight lines for me at 6' and the admiral at 4'10" were maintained when we're in our usual positions around the cockpit. Needs to be structurally sound ( Cored in divinylicell with lights being thick safety glass). Needs to allow safe passage forward with a rim of ss handholds on sides and aft.
Glass is two layers with a film between. Went back and forth about tint. Decided to go clear due to concerns when night sailing. But then had concerns about thermal effects as it's a hot box. So added two hatches over. Will add canvas to cover/protect lights from etching from sand etc. and make it cooler. Then added red/white LED lighting under to make it function at night underway or at anchor. Then the connection to topsides was re worked to add curves, increase foot print on boat and increase structural soundness. Think Phil spent a lot of hours on this "simple" thing. Now reworking the design/attachment of the hard bimini. It's also divinylcell cored glass with a safety glass insert just forward of the helm ( see the sails and masthead). It going to have solar panels on top and needs to be strong enough to stand up to a pooping without coming down on our heads. Already has these cute red/white LEDs for lighting and a pleasing set of curves which add rigidity. Can climb on both without a wiggle but not yet strong enough in my view hence the rework. You look at Bob's work such as the rework of the deckplan/interior of my boat and you can see designs that integrate form and function. This is the mark of a good architect be it buildings or boats.
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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

Out:
We added that hatch over the overhang area to help with ventilation and the view of the rig. It was not something I thought was necessary but I was not adamantly against it either. We are now contemplating having the center window in the front of the house be opening. You can never have too much ventilation.

We have lots of opening ports and we are now mocking up the locations so make sure they work well aesthetically as well as practically with the interior layout. All of this is on the drawings but if we take this extra step with mock up work we can fine tune details. I looed at this mock up of thenports on the port side and to my eye the last three pors need to be slightly lower with their centerline aligned with the cbnterline of the forward ports rather than maintain a constant reveal at the top edge.
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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

Went with fixed ports for front and sides as believe it's real hard to have them open and not leak. Also the way my main sheet runs it wouldn't open much in any case. Thought about clamshells but never liked them. So have two hatches on top much like you drew. Another an another thread a fellow poster who I really respect carried on about green water getting through the small openings for the lines lead aft. All I know is the dodger came out wonderfully. Spent 95% of our time on all watches hunkered down under the dodger with the remote around our necks when bringing the boat up from Va. in 35Kt and 6-8ft. Comfy, warm and dry. If others do this think it's important to have three sets of electronics. One at wheel for near coastal, one at nav. station and complete set over companion way as you end up spending your watch time there most times.
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