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  #931  
Old 07-02-2013
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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

Quote:
Originally Posted by SloopJonB View Post
Take a look through one of Bruce Roberts books and you will see many finely crafted boats. Oz & N.Z. seem to have a higher rate of success than we do here but that could simply be that I'm more familiar with what goes on here.
Bruce Roberts?!?

(Sorry about that.. but, JB, you really have no idea of what you speak. )
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  #932  
Old 07-02-2013
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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobperry View Post
Brent;
Pleease don't send any of your nit whits to me. If they came to you initially there is no way in hell they are going to be people I would ever work with. But given the well documented navigational efforts and groundings of your clients you seem to have plenty of nit whits already so a few more can't hurt. I'm sure there are rocks yet to hit and ice fields yet to plow.
I'd consider a nit Whit someone who would pay a designer who has zero hands on experience in building in steel, who has never got his hands dirty building a steel boat, nor crossing an ocean in a steel boat, nor maintained one for any length of time , but goes by hearsay and old wives tales about steel boats, mostly propagated by those who are trying to sell them something else.
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  #933  
Old 07-02-2013
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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

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Originally Posted by SloopJonB View Post
Home built boats get a bad rap because of the higher proportion of failures and abortions compared to pro built boats. I have seen many home builts that were the equal of nearly anything out there. I've seen ferro boats that were indistinguishable from glass built by a good yard.

Take a look through one of Bruce Roberts books and you will see many finely crafted boats. Oz & N.Z. seem to have a higher rate of success than we do here but that could simply be that I'm more familiar with what goes on here.

I basically regard boats & people the same way - I take each one individually, as they come and make my judgements individually. Profiling is as inaccurate for one as it is for the other.
Most of the pro built steel boats in BC are abortions, below the paint job. Pro means better at hiding the bad stuff, like sprayfoam over bare mill scale zero paint inside, welded one side only, and most of the weld ground off.
Foulkes boats and Horizions were built that way, with diesel tank vents halfway up the topsides, where they go under water when the boat heels, fragile plastic thru hulls, etc etc . Amazons were also unpainted below the foam, welded one side only and most of the weld ground off. Their "Quality " was only cosmetic. Welding causes distortion under weld and you get less distortion along with less strength ( yachtie priorities over seamanship) .
I always emphasize such pitfalls to my clients ,most listen some don't.
So don't assume because boat was "proffessionally built" that they did things right , just because of a pretty paint job. Most of the time with BC boats you would be wrong, and an amateur built boats would more likely to be far better, structurally.
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  #934  
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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

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Originally Posted by jak3b View Post
A friend of mine is a retired chief merhant seaman.around 2008 he was chief engineer on a Horizon container ship. They were off the coast of Oregon and in a major winter gale. They were navigating there way through the storm to try to by pass the worst of it.It was a freak storm that got much worse than forcast.During the worst of it a huge wave came over the bow and green water came all the way down the length of the ship.It smashed out the pilot house windows,bent the 'eyebrow' around the bridge back flat.The brigde was flooded, the power went down and they lost steering.My friend told me in 30+ years in the merchant marine he had never been scared till then.They had to steer the ship from an auxilery system way below deck.They communicated with the old man with walky talkys.The bridge on this ship is about 15 stories above sea level.That gives you an idea of the size of the seas.All the steel that ever came from Pitzburg couldnt save you if arent just dumb lucky.I knew of a steel fish boat
left Gloucester and just vanished, no bad weather,just gone, poof.The Gloucester pilot boat, The Can Do went down in the blizzard of '78 , between Bakers Island and Salem harbor,A 49' steel motor vessel lost with all hands in sight of land. Read 10 HOURS TILL DAWN by Michael J. Tougias. Sure steel might last longer bashing it with a sledge hammer or pounding in the surf but to think it will save your bacon no matter what is just naive.Shyte happens.Ive been on boats and sailing before I could walk or talk.No I havent sailed across the pacific but I spent years sailing in an area with ledges ,rocks, and shallow water and fog.In 50 years Ive experienced hitting 1 ledge and running aground once.The solution is good navigation and piloting.Dont hit rocks in the first place.Its really not that difficult.The basics I learned as a 10 year old, keep a good look out, always be aware of the weather and where you are have kept me and others in good stead.Noel and Litara Barret have sailed over 100,000 miles in wood boats, including Antartica,South Georgia,Cape Horn and Greenland,Iceland etc,Same with Tim and Pauline Carr in a 30 foot Falmoth Punt.They wintered for several years in South Georgia and then sailed home.I dont worry to much about hitting stuff in the Ocean.I compare the odds to the danger of where I live.Today I drove through San Francisco across the Bay Bridge through Oakland, The most dangerous city in the US now,to Berkely Marine. I survived cell phone drivers, idiots,crazies,shootouts and a Bart Strike but hey Im OK.

Nothing saves your bacon no matter what. Steel just exponentially improves the odds, the definition of good seamanship improving the odds. How many Sleavin family type disasters could be avoided had they not been discouraged by disinformation, from choosing a steel boat? It would have saved theirs.
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  #935  
Old 07-02-2013
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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

Brent:
I don't like getting my hands dirty. I have done just fine keeping my hands clean in my own office since 1973. To paraphrase that old SNL line, "Yacht design has been very good to me." I find that working over the years with the standard, age old tools of yacht design and today the computer there is really no reason for me to get my hands dirty. I have thousands of boats on the water and clean hands.

You are just going to have to buck up and face it Brent. We live in very different worlds. I am quite content in mine and I hope that you are content in yours although by the angry sound of your posts you seem less than content. You sound like you are always trying to prove something. I have no idea what it could be.

Right now I am going to prove that I can BBQ lamb loin chops and make a Caesar salad from scratch. Go ahead and rant on. I'll catch up later.
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  #936  
Old 07-02-2013
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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

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Originally Posted by Hartley18 View Post
Bruce Roberts?!?

(Sorry about that.. but, JB, you really have no idea of what you speak. )
I was speaking about the craftsmanship, not the designs.

Or were you referring to my comment about the Oz amateurs appearing to be better than here?
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  #937  
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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

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Originally Posted by SloopJonB View Post
I was speaking about the craftsmanship, not the designs.

Or were you referring to my comment about the Oz amateurs appearing to be better than here?
Righto.. I saw the words "Bruce Roberts" and nearly lost my breakfast!..

Given that amateurs are amateurs the world over, and capable of both amazing beauty and complete crap, I can't really comment on amateur-built yachts here being crafted any better or worse than in your patch - but if it happens that they are, it's perhaps only because people over here tend to feel the distance between friendly anchorages a little more than you'd ever need to over there.

AFAIK Bruce Roberts is a yacht designer, not a builder, so any impressive craftsmanship in his books is not necessarily of his doing.
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Last edited by Classic30; 07-02-2013 at 10:27 PM.
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  #938  
Old 07-02-2013
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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Swain View Post
Nothing saves your bacon no matter what. Steel just exponentially improves the odds, the definition of good seamanship improving the odds. How many Sleavin family type disasters could be avoided had they not been discouraged by disinformation, from choosing a steel boat? It would have saved theirs.
I just figured it out, Brent. Fear is what sells your boats. It's why you say the things you do. Fear and bitterness...leading to an extremely whacked out view of seamanship. It all makes sense now.

That's kind of sad, dude.

That said, where is your recipe for the cheap blocks? I'd actually like to build a few of those for backups. I've even document it for the cause.
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  #939  
Old 07-02-2013
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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

Now I'd be enormously, hugely impressed if anyone is designing steel boats to withstand a hull impact speed comparable to a .303 rifle cartridge mentioned earlier in the thread -- 744 m/s, 1,664 mph, or mach 2.19. But what sort of SA/D and wind speed do you need to get a steel boat up to mach 2.19, and what material do you need to use in order to get the rig tension just right? And isn't it just a bit unrealistic to expect flat water in the conditions needed for this performance (assuming one isn't sailing on ice or a sea of liquid mercury)? Also, wouldn't you need a pretty good restraint system and crush zone design for the crew to have a chance a surviving running into rocks at mach 2-plus?
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  #940  
Old 07-02-2013
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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

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Originally Posted by bobperry View Post
Those three photos I posted show work on the 60' ketch at Pacific Seacraft. The first pic is me sketching on the mockup the layout of the windows in the aft bulkhead. I think it is important aesthetically to have those windows follow the lines of the house top and deck structure so they look harmonious while provicde the visibility forward needed.

The second photo is an early rendering of the piot house done in 3D so we could work out the details of the pilot house. That rendering is not obsolete.

The third photo is another very early rendering of the aft cockpit. This view is also obsolete now but I think it's interestuing to see the evolution of the design and the effort made to get a beautiful final result.

These newer photos are of the final PH shape and the CNC cut foam mold used to laminate the PH. If you look closely you can see a drip groove running accross the aft end of the PH overhang.

Actually that second image is obsolete but I'll leave it there to illustrate how we use these 3D models. With that rendering and some work on the mock up we decided that the camber accross the front windows was too flat. So playing with the 3D model we increased the camber until we achieved the look we were after. The fourth photo shows the final result. The change is subtle but effective.

I think these renderings clearly show at least one way my approach to design differs from Brent's.
Beautiful work Bob! Any chance you have a mock up design for a hard dodger for my Tayana 37? When this Sunbrella dodger wears out in a few years, I 'd like to build a hard dodger. I do enjoy being out in the open, but as I get older a little more cover would be nice.

Cheers!
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