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Old 04-15-2013
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Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

In the "Modern Hull forms and Motion Comfort" thread,

Post # 142, Wolfenzee said to Bob Perry " BOB: take a close look at the lines of my boat and tell me could a fin keel have been designed in relatively easily http://atkinboatplans.com/Sail/image...inCicero-3.gif
[/I]"

And in Post #152 and #153 Bob Perry Responded:
(#152)"Damn it Wolfer!
You made me think.
I hate it when that happens.

Sure I could do your boat with a fin keel and a nice skeg hung rudder or better yet a spade rudder.

It would look just like your boat....above the water. Under the water you would not recognize it. I would have to shave away all that deadrise and reduce displ while carving away some volume forward and reducing some hollows aft.

But in the end you and me would love it. It would be a WOLF in sheep's clothing like NIGHT RUNNER."


(#153) "Wolfy:
Next Wednesday post your hull lines again and a photo or two of your boat.
When I start thinking about a new boat I need to see it and I think it would be fun for all of us to see what your boat would look like with a more modern hull combined with that traditional Atkin look.

I have to do this to get it off my mind. I'm built like that.

Or, Jeff could do it. I know he could.
Or, Jeff and I could do it together.
He'd do the hard work and I'd do the pointing and gesturing.

Either way let's see if we can produce a boat that will get your juices flowing."


And I am bowled over by that.

As a SailNet Moderator, I can only thank Bob Perry for that generous offer to come up with a design that explores Wolf's question. That is a true gift to this forum. Normal folk rarely get to see a custom design process and so this should prove interesting.

And I am truly honored that you would be willing to do this with me. I truly appreciate Bob's willingness to give that a try.

This is a thread for that process. I am excited to see where this ends up....

Jeff
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Last edited by Jeff_H; 04-16-2013 at 09:24 AM. Reason: typos
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Old 04-15-2013
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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

I certainly wouldnt consider a spade rudder with no skeg" Better yet" from a structural integrity, or a cruising priorities perspective.
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Old 04-15-2013
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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

Jeff, thanks for splitting this off. The motion comfort thread is interesting, but gets a little too academic for me at this point in my sailing "career". That being said, it will be neat to see this all play out.
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Old 04-16-2013
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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

Subscribed. Looking forward to seeing the results of this. And it looks like wolf's pdf link isn't working now, but something could have become mangled during the cut-and-paste.
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Old 04-16-2013
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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

I must admit that I have been noodling the idea of an 'improved version' of Wolf's boat ever since I saw his post #142, but especially after seeing Bob Perry's replies. As the third wheel with someone like Wolf who has a strong affinity for his boat, and someone as highly respected as Bob Perry, I do not venture to see myself as steering this bus.

But as I have been thinking about this, it seems like there are three possible approaches which come to mind. I have given each of these approaches their own name; 1. 'caricature boat' (not to be mistaken for a Character Boat, a term which I personnally have never liked), 2. 'A squinter', and 3. 'A sleeper in Wolf's clothing'.

To define these terms as I am using them, I see the 'caricature boat' as having the obvious character setting features of a traditional design visible and in some cases exaggerated so that if you know the precedent design, you will recognize it, and yet it is not a literal interpretation. I would suggest that the best examples of this type would be something like the Alerion Express and Bob's own Valiants.

I would think that the hull and cabin for a 'caricature boat' would probably look like like Wolf's boat at least to the waterline, but the rig and underbody would be modernized. My sense is that would produce a boat that sailed well, might not be a fast as the 'squinter' or have quite as many of the traditional virtues of Wolf's current boat or the 'sleeper in Wolf's clothing'. It would be a nice boat.

The 'squinters' are boats that if you see them at a long distance, and squint enough to bring them into focus, they might appear top be traditional design. But as soon as you can see one clearly, they are clearly not traditional designs from any angle. In my mind, a successful example of that are the Schooner Woodwinds which sail out of Annapolis. They are perfectly suited to the job in life and not bad looking boats. They sail way better than first glance might suggest, but there is nothing really accurately traditional about these boats. I would think this would be the fastest of the three and perhaps the easiest to handle. I am not sure that this is what Wolf had in mind.....But I'll let Wolf and Bob negotiate that one.

The 'sleeper in Wolf's clothing' would take the basic design of Wolf's boat and subtly tweak the hull and rig. I figure under this approach, the basic canoe body would remain essentially the same, but we would add a fin keel and skeg hung rudder. The change might be as subtle as the profile of L. Francis's Ticonderoga or Bounty....Or perhaps more extreme in the mode of Brewer Bites...Or perhaps we go for broke and design a real fin and skeg hung or spade rudder (perhaps as extreme as a Galaxy 32).

This would probably be the closest in behaivor to Wolf's current boat. It would probably have a very similar motion, albeit a little nicer due to better dampening and more stability. It would ahve pretty much the same carrying capacity, although the overall displacement would be reduced. It would be faster especially in light air, and going upwind. It would probably be a better boat all around.

Whatever it turns out, from reading Wolf's concerns about grounding the keel will need a long chord in order to be able to distribute the shock loads of a hard grounding. Looking at the profile of Wolf's boat, the keel has a lot of drag (meant in the traditional sense of the word..meaning that the keel at the stern is much lower than the forefoot rather than meaning resistance). Since that is the case, going to a fin keel would probably move the center of lateral resistance forward and that would impact the design of the rig.

Wolf, I do not recall seeing a sail plan for your boat. If you have one can you post it....

Anyway, those are my thoughts, (for now)
Jeff
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Last edited by Jeff_H; 04-16-2013 at 05:22 PM.
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Old 04-16-2013
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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

I kind of think the process will end up with something along the lines of Night Runner or Jakatan. Looks old at first glance afloat but that impression doesn't stand up to close scrutiny.
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Old 04-16-2013
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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

This is going to be cool.
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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

Looking forward to this too.. but wondering.

Is the intent to modify Wolf's exisiting hull with new appendage(s) to update performance?

Is it to redesign from the waterplane down to enhance performance while retaining the current positives (in Wolf's view)

Or is it a fresh start that may preserve the look and feel of the current boat with today's technological improvements brought into play?
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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

Can't wait to see what Mr Perry comes up with. Will take a posture of watchful waiting. Be a delight if a production run followed.
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Old 04-17-2013
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Re: Bob Perry's take on Wolfenzee's dream boat

To get this rolling I redrafted Wolf's boat on CADD so we had something slightly larger to work from. They are not fully faired since they are basically a tracing of the Atkin's lines drawings, but they should serve as a reasonable point of departure.



I can get them to Bob as a .dwg if he would like.

Jeff
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Last edited by Jeff_H; 04-17-2013 at 04:32 PM.
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