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  #31  
Old 05-09-2013
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Re: Encapsulated Keel?

You are correct Alex. We can't talk hull shape differences without including displacement. But beghaviour in waves my have more to do with initial stability than it does with the high heel angle benefits of more ballast, lower down. Your two boats are almost polar opposites in terms of hull shapes. The Yankee's speed in light air may have to do with wetted surface and sail area/wetted surface ratio. Ted Hood did a string of IOR boats that were deep and heavy and renowned for their speed in light air. The Yankee 30 wads an IOR era boat and say whaty you like about the IOR (or better yet read my article in GOB several months back on the IOR) but IOR boats performed very well in light air.

It could be something as simple as the fact that maybe the Yankee has better sails.

There are a lot of books on yacht design but the one book I think stands out is Steve Killing's book YACHT DESIGN EXPLAINED. I also go into quite a bit of design theory in my own book YACHT DESIGN ACCORDING TO PERRY. There is also a lot of design wisdom in Chuck Paine's beautiful book.
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  #32  
Old 05-09-2013
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Re: Encapsulated Keel?

My boat was all over the place in a following sea on the upper chessy a few years back. I was exhausted by it at by time we reached the bridge.
I like my boat and the low maintenance of the encaped keel, but there just something comforting about seeing BIG Bolts. which my boat doesn't have. I think all the other O30s had bolt ons.
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  #33  
Old 05-09-2013
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Re: Encapsulated Keel?

Quote:
Originally Posted by deniseO30 View Post
My boat was all over the place in a following sea on the upper chessy a few years back. I was exhausted by it at by time we reached the bridge.
I like my boat and the low maintenance of the encaped keel, but there just something comforting about seeing BIG Bolts. which my boat doesn't have. I think all the other O30s had bolt ons.
I would think just the opposite - I've seen so many corroded keel bolts that the absence of them would be a comfort.

Just look at what I pulled out of my old Columbia 43 - that mess was actually still holding the 10,000 Lb keel on without a leak.
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Old 05-09-2013
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Not to get bogged down on the issue...

Quote:
Originally Posted by SimonV View Post
I thought every one knew what bog was, maybe it an Aussie thing!...It can be polyester resin or epoxy resin, thickened with talc or micro balloons. mainly used for fairing or leveling. Also a great glue. Can be bought in two part cans, but that is expensive.
I call that thickened epoxy. But then...we also call a Ute a truck (Lived in Australia). I suppose we simpley lack imagination! .
So...I guess they formed the keel, then applied the bog to the inside of the keel before pouring the led to save on lead and weight? I would have thought they would have simply made the keel smaller, as I assume the bog has little structural value.
Any pictures?

Last edited by L124C; 05-09-2013 at 01:36 PM.
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Old 05-09-2013
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Re: Encapsulated Keel?

Thanks Bob, I'm adding both books to my shopping list.

The big keel, skeg and high displacement of the Yankee 30 seem like they'd create a lot of wetted surface area, but maybe the extra sail area more than makes up for it.

It would be nice if there were easy to find drawings of most boats that showed the hull form, not just the interior layout.
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Re: Encapsulated Keel?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SloopJonB View Post
I would think just the opposite - I've seen so many corroded keel bolts that the absence of them would be a comfort.

Just look at what I pulled out of my old Columbia 43 - that mess was actually still holding the 10,000 Lb keel on without a leak.
Exactly why encapsulated keels in older boats are attractive to me! Hard to tell, but those bolts look very small for the job. On the other end of the spectrum, my Yankee 30 has at least 6 bolts (possibly 8) that are almost an inch in diameter. I hired a boat wright to tighten them, and he didn't bring a wrench large enough. He said he had never seen keel bolts that size on a boat half again as large!
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Re: Encapsulated Keel?

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Originally Posted by Alex W View Post
Thanks, that does more or less make sense, and gives me more to search on. I really appreciate you hanging around here (and on sailing anarchy) and providing context, design history, and sharing your thoughts on sailboat design.I've been trying to wrap my head around different keel plans (not fin vs full, but different designs of fin keels and different B/D approaches) and how they affect sailing ability. This comes from seeing how differently my Pearson 28-2 (low B/D) and a friend's Yankee 30 (high B/D) sail even though both have the same LWL and close SA/D. His boat is over 2000lbs heavier, and almost all of it is in the keel. The mast is 4' taller to make up for that. It's interesting seeing how my boat gets pushed around in following seas, while his extra weight keeps the boat on track. Speed and performance wise they feel quite similar..
Going off topic, but as a Yankee 30 owner, it's my impression that the main advantage of the skeg mounted rudder is stability in following seas.
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Re: Encapsulated Keel?

scary bolts to look at. seems you got it just in time. that's why I went with an encapsulated keel. Understand you lose a little by ending up with a fin that's slightly wider than it may need to be. Some boats (mine included) have encapsulated keels and bulbs ( they bolt the two halves of the bulb on then glass it over). guess what scares you is what you've seen in the past. if I ever had a bolt on again would look into monel or something where crevice corrosion is unlikely to occur. My PSC bolts are perfect. think if done right it's a nonissue but nice to no longer have it on the list to check
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Old 05-10-2013
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Re: Not to get bogged down on the issue...

Quote:
Originally Posted by L124C View Post
I call that thickened epoxy. But then...we also call a Ute a truck (Lived in Australia). I suppose we simpley lack imagination! .
So...I guess they formed the keel, then applied the bog to the inside of the keel before pouring the led to save on lead and weight? I would have thought they would have simply made the keel smaller, as I assume the bog has little structural value.
Any pictures?
Sorry no pics. The lead ballast (9000lbs) is pre cast away from the boat, and the solid form is lowered into the keel and held central until the bog cures that is why on some encapsulated keels can sound as if there are voids.
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Last edited by SimonV; 05-10-2013 at 07:47 AM.
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Old 05-21-2013
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Keel notes

Quote:
Originally Posted by L124C View Post
Saw this Ericson in the yard the other day. I'm under the impression Ericsons have encapsulated keels and was struck by the narrow profile of this one. If this keel is encapsulated, it's hard for me to believe the narrow profile of the FRP could take the lateral stress induced by the led while heeling. How does it work? Does the lead become a structural component? What would the ratio of lead to FRP be 3/4 down the keel? How day do dat?
That's an 80's-era Bruce King-designed Ericson - external lead fin keel. Offhand, it looks like a 35-3 or 38, to me.
I did a delivery up to the Straits in a 38-200, last summer. We were surfing north on an un-planned-for southerly (20 kt +) around midnight, making consistantly over 8 kts water speed, genoa only. Same keel profile as the boat pictured.


FWIW, Ericson started the design changeover from internal ballast to external lead keels in the late 70's-early 80's, and the changeover happened over several years, depending on model.

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