Encapsulated Keel? - Page 4 - SailNet Community

   Search Sailnet:

 forums  store  


Quick Menu
Forums           
Articles          
Galleries        
Boat Reviews  
Classifieds     
Search SailNet 
Boat Search (new)

Shop the
SailNet Store
Anchor Locker
Boatbuilding & Repair
Charts
Clothing
Electrical
Electronics
Engine
Hatches and Portlights
Interior And Galley
Maintenance
Marine Electronics
Navigation
Other Items
Plumbing and Pumps
Rigging
Safety
Sailing Hardware
Trailer & Watersports
Clearance Items

Advertise Here






Go Back   SailNet Community > On Board > Boat Review and Purchase Forum > Sailboat Design and Construction
 Not a Member? 


Like Tree6Likes
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
  #31  
Old 05-09-2013
grumpy old man
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 3,786
Thanks: 1
Thanked 80 Times in 76 Posts
Rep Power: 4
bobperry will become famous soon enough
Re: Encapsulated Keel?

You are correct Alex. We can't talk hull shape differences without including displacement. But beghaviour in waves my have more to do with initial stability than it does with the high heel angle benefits of more ballast, lower down. Your two boats are almost polar opposites in terms of hull shapes. The Yankee's speed in light air may have to do with wetted surface and sail area/wetted surface ratio. Ted Hood did a string of IOR boats that were deep and heavy and renowned for their speed in light air. The Yankee 30 wads an IOR era boat and say whaty you like about the IOR (or better yet read my article in GOB several months back on the IOR) but IOR boats performed very well in light air.

It could be something as simple as the fact that maybe the Yankee has better sails.

There are a lot of books on yacht design but the one book I think stands out is Steve Killing's book YACHT DESIGN EXPLAINED. I also go into quite a bit of design theory in my own book YACHT DESIGN ACCORDING TO PERRY. There is also a lot of design wisdom in Chuck Paine's beautiful book.
__________________
Please visit my blog. It's fun to read.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Bob's Blog ....

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


Please also visit my new web site
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #32  
Old 05-09-2013
deniseO30's Avatar
1934 Chickering
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Bristol pa
Posts: 6,320
Thanks: 52
Thanked 99 Times in 89 Posts
Rep Power: 9
deniseO30 will become famous soon enough deniseO30 will become famous soon enough
Re: Encapsulated Keel?

My boat was all over the place in a following sea on the upper chessy a few years back. I was exhausted by it at by time we reached the bridge.
I like my boat and the low maintenance of the encaped keel, but there just something comforting about seeing BIG Bolts. which my boat doesn't have. I think all the other O30s had bolt ons.
__________________
Denise, Bristol PA, Oday 30. On Tidal Delaware River, Anchor Yacht Club. New Website!
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

My boat is for sale.
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #33  
Old 05-09-2013
SloopJonB's Avatar
Senior Moment Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: West Vancouver B.C.
Posts: 10,896
Thanks: 58
Thanked 55 Times in 52 Posts
Rep Power: 4
SloopJonB will become famous soon enough
Re: Encapsulated Keel?

Quote:
Originally Posted by deniseO30 View Post
My boat was all over the place in a following sea on the upper chessy a few years back. I was exhausted by it at by time we reached the bridge.
I like my boat and the low maintenance of the encaped keel, but there just something comforting about seeing BIG Bolts. which my boat doesn't have. I think all the other O30s had bolt ons.
I would think just the opposite - I've seen so many corroded keel bolts that the absence of them would be a comfort.

Just look at what I pulled out of my old Columbia 43 - that mess was actually still holding the 10,000 Lb keel on without a leak.
Attached Thumbnails
Encapsulated Keel?-8-these-actually-held-keel-.jpg  
__________________
I, myself, personally intend to continue being outspoken and opinionated, intolerant of all fanatics, fools and ignoramuses, deeply suspicious of all those who have "found the answer" and on my bad days, downright rude.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #34  
Old 05-09-2013
L124C's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 1,388
Thanks: 48
Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts
Rep Power: 8
L124C is on a distinguished road
Not to get bogged down on the issue...

Quote:
Originally Posted by SimonV View Post
I thought every one knew what bog was, maybe it an Aussie thing!...It can be polyester resin or epoxy resin, thickened with talc or micro balloons. mainly used for fairing or leveling. Also a great glue. Can be bought in two part cans, but that is expensive.
I call that thickened epoxy. But then...we also call a Ute a truck (Lived in Australia). I suppose we simpley lack imagination! .
So...I guess they formed the keel, then applied the bog to the inside of the keel before pouring the led to save on lead and weight? I would have thought they would have simply made the keel smaller, as I assume the bog has little structural value.
Any pictures?

Last edited by L124C; 05-09-2013 at 02:36 PM.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #35  
Old 05-09-2013
Alex W's Avatar
no longer reading SailNet
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 2,308
Thanks: 2
Thanked 139 Times in 133 Posts
Rep Power: 3
Alex W is on a distinguished road
Re: Encapsulated Keel?

Thanks Bob, I'm adding both books to my shopping list.

The big keel, skeg and high displacement of the Yankee 30 seem like they'd create a lot of wetted surface area, but maybe the extra sail area more than makes up for it.

It would be nice if there were easy to find drawings of most boats that showed the hull form, not just the interior layout.
__________________
I'm no longer participating on SailNet.

Last edited by Alex W; 05-09-2013 at 02:47 PM.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #36  
Old 05-09-2013
L124C's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 1,388
Thanks: 48
Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts
Rep Power: 8
L124C is on a distinguished road
Re: Encapsulated Keel?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SloopJonB View Post
I would think just the opposite - I've seen so many corroded keel bolts that the absence of them would be a comfort.

Just look at what I pulled out of my old Columbia 43 - that mess was actually still holding the 10,000 Lb keel on without a leak.
Exactly why encapsulated keels in older boats are attractive to me! Hard to tell, but those bolts look very small for the job. On the other end of the spectrum, my Yankee 30 has at least 6 bolts (possibly 8) that are almost an inch in diameter. I hired a boat wright to tighten them, and he didn't bring a wrench large enough. He said he had never seen keel bolts that size on a boat half again as large!
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #37  
Old 05-09-2013
L124C's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 1,388
Thanks: 48
Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts
Rep Power: 8
L124C is on a distinguished road
Re: Encapsulated Keel?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alex W View Post
Thanks, that does more or less make sense, and gives me more to search on. I really appreciate you hanging around here (and on sailing anarchy) and providing context, design history, and sharing your thoughts on sailboat design.I've been trying to wrap my head around different keel plans (not fin vs full, but different designs of fin keels and different B/D approaches) and how they affect sailing ability. This comes from seeing how differently my Pearson 28-2 (low B/D) and a friend's Yankee 30 (high B/D) sail even though both have the same LWL and close SA/D. His boat is over 2000lbs heavier, and almost all of it is in the keel. The mast is 4' taller to make up for that. It's interesting seeing how my boat gets pushed around in following seas, while his extra weight keeps the boat on track. Speed and performance wise they feel quite similar..
Going off topic, but as a Yankee 30 owner, it's my impression that the main advantage of the skeg mounted rudder is stability in following seas.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #38  
Old 05-09-2013
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: new england
Posts: 1,800
Thanks: 32
Thanked 31 Times in 28 Posts
Rep Power: 2
outbound is on a distinguished road
Re: Encapsulated Keel?

scary bolts to look at. seems you got it just in time. that's why I went with an encapsulated keel. Understand you lose a little by ending up with a fin that's slightly wider than it may need to be. Some boats (mine included) have encapsulated keels and bulbs ( they bolt the two halves of the bulb on then glass it over). guess what scares you is what you've seen in the past. if I ever had a bolt on again would look into monel or something where crevice corrosion is unlikely to occur. My PSC bolts are perfect. think if done right it's a nonissue but nice to no longer have it on the list to check
__________________
s/v Hippocampus
Outbound 46
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #39  
Old 05-10-2013
SimonV's Avatar
Wish I never found SN!
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Brisbane Australia
Posts: 1,996
Thanks: 3
Thanked 4 Times in 4 Posts
Rep Power: 9
SimonV will become famous soon enough
Re: Not to get bogged down on the issue...

Quote:
Originally Posted by L124C View Post
I call that thickened epoxy. But then...we also call a Ute a truck (Lived in Australia). I suppose we simpley lack imagination! .
So...I guess they formed the keel, then applied the bog to the inside of the keel before pouring the led to save on lead and weight? I would have thought they would have simply made the keel smaller, as I assume the bog has little structural value.
Any pictures?
Sorry no pics. The lead ballast (9000lbs) is pre cast away from the boat, and the solid form is lowered into the keel and held central until the bog cures that is why on some encapsulated keels can sound as if there are voids.
__________________
Simon
Ericson 39B.
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

I love my boat
S/V GOODONYA
Brisbane
present location Heading to the Whitesundays

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

DELIVERY SKIPPER
Drinking Rum before 10am makes you a Pirate NOT an alcohlic

Last edited by SimonV; 05-10-2013 at 08:47 AM.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #40  
Old 05-21-2013
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 671
Thanks: 1
Thanked 6 Times in 6 Posts
Rep Power: 15
olson34 is on a distinguished road
Keel notes

Quote:
Originally Posted by L124C View Post
Saw this Ericson in the yard the other day. I'm under the impression Ericsons have encapsulated keels and was struck by the narrow profile of this one. If this keel is encapsulated, it's hard for me to believe the narrow profile of the FRP could take the lateral stress induced by the led while heeling. How does it work? Does the lead become a structural component? What would the ratio of lead to FRP be 3/4 down the keel? How day do dat?
That's an 80's-era Bruce King-designed Ericson - external lead fin keel. Offhand, it looks like a 35-3 or 38, to me.
I did a delivery up to the Straits in a 38-200, last summer. We were surfing north on an un-planned-for southerly (20 kt +) around midnight, making consistantly over 8 kts water speed, genoa only. Same keel profile as the boat pictured.


FWIW, Ericson started the design changeover from internal ballast to external lead keels in the late 70's-early 80's, and the changeover happened over several years, depending on model.

Loren
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
Reply

Tags
encapsulated keel , ericson

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

By choosing to post the reply above you agree to the rules you agreed to when joining Sailnet.
Click Here to view those rules.

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the SailNet Community forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
Please note: After entering 3 characters a list of Usernames already in use will appear and the list will disappear once a valid Username is entered.
User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

 
Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may post attachments
You may edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Crack in front of encapsulated keel FishFinder Gear & Maintenance 19 04-29-2013 01:09 PM
Encapsulated or Bolt On Keel? aasault Boat Review and Purchase Forum 34 06-19-2011 10:20 AM
encapsulated keel 83XT4 Pacific Seacraft 13 01-09-2010 09:14 PM
Electrical Grounding for an Encapsulated Keel? MedSailor Gear & Maintenance 5 07-10-2009 08:28 PM
encapsulated keel leaking to bilge jbrockpiano Gear & Maintenance 20 06-12-2008 12:43 PM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 09:50 PM.

Add to My Yahoo!         
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
SEO by vBSEO 3.6.1
(c) Marine.com LLC 2000-2012

The SailNet.com store is owned and operated by a company independent of the SailNet.com forum. You are now leaving the SailNet forum. Click OK to continue or Cancel to return to the SailNet forum.