Shoal Keel: Excessive Leeway - SailNet Community

   Search Sailnet:

 forums  store  


Quick Menu
Forums           
Articles          
Galleries        
Boat Reviews  
Classifieds     
Search SailNet 
Boat Search (new)

Shop the
SailNet Store
Anchor Locker
Boatbuilding & Repair
Charts
Clothing
Electrical
Electronics
Engine
Hatches and Portlights
Interior And Galley
Maintenance
Marine Electronics
Navigation
Other Items
Plumbing and Pumps
Rigging
Safety
Sailing Hardware
Trailer & Watersports
Clearance Items

Advertise Here






Go Back   SailNet Community > Skills and Seamanship > Seamanship & Navigation
 Not a Member? 

Seamanship & Navigation Forum devoted to seamanship and navigation topics, including paper and electronic charting tools.


Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
  #1  
Old 05-31-2013
5hortBu5's Avatar
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 78
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Rep Power: 5
5hortBu5 is on a distinguished road
Shoal Keel: Excessive Leeway

Hey folks,

I'm the happy owner of a little 1977 O'Day 22, the one with the masthead rig and a shoal keel. I've been having a lovely time sailing about on the Delaware River over the past season (cumulative, I guess).

Late last season, I started participating in my yacht club's Wednesday night club races, and when I started comparing my performance to any of the other boats in the B-Fleet, I realized just how ridiculous my amount of leeway is.

I'm guessing that the problem is a combination of my old, probably-blown-out 100% jib, and only having about a foot of legit keel depth below the hull (I draw 1'11"), but "It's the poor workman who blames his tools". So, beside the obvious and expensive advice of "Get something with a good, deep keel" Would any of you clever, experienced folks have any tips or tricks for a newbie trying to point to a windward mark, and making very little ground for the effort?
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #2  
Old 05-31-2013
chucklesR's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Pasadena Md - Magothy side
Posts: 5,977
Thanks: 10
Thanked 30 Times in 30 Posts
Rep Power: 9
chucklesR is a jewel in the rough chucklesR is a jewel in the rough chucklesR is a jewel in the rough
Re: Shoal Keel: Excessive Leeway

Nope, sorry Shortbus, that's about it, get a boat with a proper keel if you want to go to wind.
Maximize what little advantage you have (low wetted surface) and run like heck on the downwind leg.
Note I have some experience in that department.
__________________
Lessons learned are opportunities earned.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #3  
Old 05-31-2013
jsaronson's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 840
Thanks: 2
Thanked 23 Times in 23 Posts
Rep Power: 3
jsaronson is on a distinguished road
Re: Shoal Keel: Excessive Leeway

What does your main look like? If it is baggy too, that combined with the shoal keel is a killer.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #4  
Old 05-31-2013
5hortBu5's Avatar
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 78
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Rep Power: 5
5hortBu5 is on a distinguished road
Re: Shoal Keel: Excessive Leeway

Quote:
Originally Posted by jsaronson View Post
What does your main look like? If it is baggy too, that combined with the shoal keel is a killer.
The main is a crispy and new loose-footed FX sail. Only been used for a couple seasons. I'm fairly confident it's not the problem. In fact, it's probably the nicest part of the rig right now
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #5  
Old 05-31-2013
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 102
Thanks: 0
Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts
Rep Power: 4
SailingJackson is on a distinguished road
Re: Shoal Keel: Excessive Leeway

I'd guess it's both, but I also think replacing the sail will have a big impact. I think it's actually more comfortable to sail on a boat with good sails, particularly a small tender boat like the one you have.

With blown sail, every puff will be felt as the boat tips and the strain is increased laterally. With a good sail shape, where the fabric is still stiff, every puff will be felt more as an acceleration and less as a lean on the boat.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #6  
Old 05-31-2013
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Wilmington NC
Posts: 40
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Rep Power: 0
dorymate1 is on a distinguished road
Re: Shoal Keel: Excessive Leeway

The trick is to use what you got. you will never point as high as some other boats . But if you foot off & adjust your sails properly you'll need to cover more distance you may find you can beat the others that are trying to point to high.
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
May you weather all storms
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #7  
Old 05-31-2013
GeorgeB's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Alameda, San Francisco Bay
Posts: 1,468
Thanks: 1
Thanked 35 Times in 34 Posts
Rep Power: 10
GeorgeB is on a distinguished road
Re: Shoal Keel: Excessive Leeway

Can you provide a couple of pictures of your deck layout? (it will go a long way in helping me kibitzing on this problem.) The sort answer is you will not intrinsically point better or as well as your fin keel competitors. You will need to out trim and out strategize them. You will want to “dial in” your boat to maximize the performance of what you have. Try upping the traveler higher than you would normally do to force the boat to point. Experiment with this as too much will kill boat speed. Also look at your rig tune. More mast rake will give you more weather helm and will make the boat want to stay on point. Work on sail trim. Most sailors (and a lot of club racers) don’t do a good job at this so you may gain an advantage here. Later we can work on tactics (are you racing using a handicap system?)

Most importantly, continue to race! Racing is not only fun in and by itself, but it will make you a better sailor too. You have already taken the first step of doing a true comparison of performance. Our next step is to start tweaking to improve it.
__________________
George B
2000 Catalina 34 MkII
Alameda, Ca.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #8  
Old 05-31-2013
SchockT's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: North Vancouver, BC
Posts: 1,424
Thanks: 1
Thanked 27 Times in 25 Posts
Rep Power: 3
SchockT is on a distinguished road
Re: Shoal Keel: Excessive Leeway

I don't have any direct experience with shoal draft boats, but as others have suggested, you need to figure out how to exploit the strengths of your boat. Accept the fact that your boat will not point with the deeper draft boats, and don't even try. Instead you want to focus on sailing slightly lower and faster, and at the same time keep the boat as flat as you can. More speed will help your keel generate more lift. If you are really serious about improving your windward performance, spend some time fairing your keel so that you can make the most of what you've got. While it is true that "a poor craftsman blames his tools" the fact remains that as racing goes, you don't really have the right tool!

On the bright side, you do have a bit of an advantage down wind with the lower wetted surface area. Also, if currents are a factor in your area, you have the option of going into shallow water to get relief from adverse currents.

If you really get the racing bug, you should definitely plan to get into a boat with afin keel in future.
__________________
1979 Santana 30 Tall Rig
Hull#101

Last edited by SchockT; 05-31-2013 at 02:16 PM.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #9  
Old 05-31-2013
deniseO30's Avatar
Move over Joan Rivers!
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Bristol pa
Posts: 6,100
Thanks: 52
Thanked 87 Times in 77 Posts
Rep Power: 9
deniseO30 will become famous soon enough deniseO30 will become famous soon enough
Re: Shoal Keel: Excessive Leeway

5hort, You may be under estimating the current in the river. There are times in opposing wind and current you will won't even have steerage! Where do you race? There is East End YC up here out of Burlington, they race weekely. Tuesdays I think
__________________
Denise, Bristol PA, Oday 30. On Tidal Delaware River, Anchor Yacht Club. New Website!
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

my current "project"!
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #10  
Old 05-31-2013
5hortBu5's Avatar
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 78
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Rep Power: 5
5hortBu5 is on a distinguished road
Re: Shoal Keel: Excessive Leeway

Denise: I've definitely experienced that, but it's not quite what I'm talking about here. This is a case where I'm on the same(ish) heading as a relatively nearby boat, and I'm just skidding sideways compared to 'em.

I'm moored and "race" (ha!) at Riverton Yacht Club, a bit South of you, near the Tacony Palmyra Bridge on Wednesday nights. Most nights, we're bouncing around between buoys 10A at the bridge, and 18.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

 
Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may post attachments
You may edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
shoal draft keel vs regular keel peterchech General Discussion (sailing related) 50 04-03-2013 01:46 PM
shoal keel and other types daydream sailor General Discussion (sailing related) 4 07-21-2012 11:29 PM
Shoal draft keel versus regular fin keel GBurton Boat Review and Purchase Forum 21 08-17-2007 11:33 PM
shoal keel vs swing keel pelicanl Boat Review and Purchase Forum 0 02-04-2007 02:52 PM
Shoal Keel VirginiaSailor General Discussion (sailing related) 3 07-25-2006 02:45 PM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 11:04 PM.

Add to My Yahoo!         
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
SEO by vBSEO 3.6.1
(c) Marine.com LLC 2000-2012

The SailNet.com store is owned and operated by a company independent of the SailNet.com forum. You are now leaving the SailNet forum. Click OK to continue or Cancel to return to the SailNet forum.