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Seamanship & Navigation Forum devoted to seamanship and navigation topics, including paper and electronic charting tools.


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  #31  
Old 06-27-2013
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Re: Anchor Setting Woes

I use only about 15 feet of chain outside coral latitudes and have had no reason to change. It has worked for me for the last 40 years of mostly full time cruising. One advantage of using less chain is you can tug on your rode and feel if the anchor is set, something you cant do with al chain rode. If you use a 30 lb kellet of lead( one litre) You can let your anchor hit the bottom, then put the kellet on before letting out more rode. You can do that with several kellets . This enables you to recover them by lifting one at a time, instead of having to lift a lot of weight simultaneously, as you would with chain.
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  #32  
Old 06-27-2013
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Re: Anchor Setting Woes

Since some have mentioned anchor alarms, I've found Boat Monitor to be the best so far. I used to use Anchor Watch.

Boat Monitor allows you to establish the location of the anchor, not just the location of the smart phone, then establish whatever size alarm zone you like. You can also make a part of the swing off limits.

What I really like is its graphic that has a persistence line showing you moving around. Its one thing for an alarm to go off, but its nice to see if you're dragging toward it, especially if you are down below and not able to see relative movement.

Best yet, you can sign onto a companion website when ashore and see the exact image that your device aboard shows. Very, very cool. It will also send you a text message if the alarm goes off.
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  #33  
Old 06-27-2013
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Re: Anchor Setting Woes

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My wife and I have worked out a set of very simple hand signals for anchoring
Great idea! So far my wife only knows the one with the extended middle finger though. I get that one a lot.
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  #34  
Old 06-27-2013
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Re: Anchor Setting Woes

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maine Sail View Post
Just wondering out loud here but does that micro-burst at 3:00 am that rotates you 180 degrees and blows 50 knots allow your anchor to "settle" before it begins its abuse on your "coaxed and coerced" set.....?????

Who is allowing your anchor to "settle" on a re-set in the middle of the night? Does Mother Nature care? Do you get up at 3:00am and go through the motions all over and coax it to set, then wait a half hour, dringk a cocktail, then back down a little more then wait some more, then apply 1000RPM to finally test it? How do you ever get any sleep..?

Sorry but if an anchor needs to "settle" and needs coersion or coaxing it is not the anchor I want, and I've owned and currently own them....

This is just SOME of the anchors I own (some of these are lawn ornaments to me and will never be used again):



We can set any of our new gen anchors, Spade, Rocna, Manson Supreme or Mantus within inches then apply at wide open throttle and bury it into the bottom measured in feet not inches.

I want an anchor that sets, and more importantly RESETS, all on its own without caressing, whispering in its ear or coaxing it to set.....

MS

You're not quite understanding the process/situation. I guarantee you there are some soft mud places where a quick, hard set WILL NOT work with any of your anchors. Or even with all of them!! In tandem!!

When you let the anchor settle, it's getting down past the soft soup into harder bottom where it will set well. You know my boat, 30,000 lbs or more. I have the Manson Supreme 45 lb. with 200' of chain. Most of the time, in the Chesapeake, I will drag the Manson even with 7:1 if I throttle up very much at all. But wait a few hours and then throttle up full, no problems.
The raft up I mentioned previously here. I could feel a very slight drag when I put the anchor down and throttled up a bit. Tight anchorage and zero wind. So we rafted 6 good sized boats to me and then the wind started changing 90 degrees at a time. We turned 360 over about 12 hours with winds picking up to around 12 or so off and on. We didn't budge.

You Mainers are Soooo impatient!
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  #35  
Old 06-27-2013
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Re: Anchor Setting Woes

Quote:
Originally Posted by xort View Post
When you let the anchor settle, it's getting down past the soft soup into harder bottom where it will set well.
Yeah, theres places that works.
Colon in Panama was like that... I couldnt get the anchor to set and some old duffer watching told me to drop it and then go have lunch for an hour and then pull back on it. I think I called him a stupid old geriatric.


But he was right




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  #36  
Old 06-28-2013
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Re: Anchor Setting Woes

I get the impression that the Chesapeake is soft mud in many places. I'm surprised that nobody here has yet mentioned the folly of using too much chain with a danforth style anchor in soft mud.

You heard right, there can be such thing as too much chain (in special circumstances).

If the mud is soft, and the chain heavy, the shank of the anchor can pivot BELOW the flukes. You drag with the shank buried and the flukes stay on the surface. This is especially problematic if you set your danforth style anchor with a lot of scope. I know this is counter-intuative to setting every other type of anchor, but I think it's your problem.

Quote from an email I got directly from Fortress anchors in 2008 on this very subject:
..."One downside of using more chain is that with any “pivoting fluke” type of anchor, such as the Fortress, Dan forth, etc. the extra weight of the chain can sink the flukes below the shank [he actually means sink the shank below the flukes--Med] if you are using a long scope in a very soft bottom, like soft mud. I have attached an image which may help you to visualize this.

To prevent this from happening, you simply need to permanently install the Mud Palms on the anchor, which are included with all Fortress anchors. The Mud Palms will lift the rear of the anchor up and force the flukes to take a more aggressive angle into the bottom. You should also use a shorter scope in a soft bottom when initially setting the anchor, which will keep the shank up so that the flukes will dig in first."...


From Fortress's website (see point #8):Fortress Safe Anchoring Guide


If you have a bunch of scope out, 30ft of chain and you're setting it slowly, odds are it won't work in soft mud. I've had this happen and confirmed what was happening with scuba gear. You are better off setting your danforth with short scope (fortress recommends 2:1), to ensure you are pulling up on the stock enough that it is not below the horizontal and only after it's set you can add your scope to 5-7:1 and back up on it hard.

There is nothing wrong with a danforth style anchor area for your bottom types. I have over a hundred nights at anchor on a Fortress and it worked, but setting it was tricky and required skill. Sometimes I had to try 4 times (but usually got it first time).

While I say there is nothing wrong with the fortress/danforth (I have 3 fortresses aboard) I STRONGY prefer the Mantus anchor or the genuine Bruce for their setting ability. If you get an Mantus, Rocna, or Mansun you'll never go back. Actually... now that I mention it, has anyone ever heard of anyone going back from a next-gen anchor?

Happy anchoring and thanks for the good question!

MedSailor
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Last edited by MedSailor; 06-28-2013 at 12:22 AM.
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  #37  
Old 06-28-2013
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Re: Anchor Setting Woes

Me I like chain ... we have Bruce hanging off 90m chain plus the same of rope. Provided we find the bottom that seems to hold us pretty well.

Previous boat was originally CQR with 35m chain. OK but the CQR seemed not to like soft sand. Replace with Rocna and no further problems provided I let out good scope.

An older boat of mine came with a Danforth, 2m chain plus rope. I had all kinds of problems with that setup .... surprise surprise .... but once I added an extra 20m of chain all went fairly well though to be honest I never fully trusted the Danforth.
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  #38  
Old 06-28-2013
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Re: Anchor Setting Woes

Quote:
Originally Posted by MedSailor View Post
I get the impression that the Chesapeake is soft mud in many places. I'm surprised that nobody here has yet mentioned the folly of using too much chain with a danforth style anchor in soft mud.

You heard right, there can be such thing as too much chain (in special circumstances).

If the mud is soft, and the chain heavy, the shank of the anchor can pivot BELOW the flukes. You drag with the shank buried and the flukes stay on the surface. This is especially problematic if you set your danforth style anchor with a lot of scope. I know this is counter-intuative to setting every other type of anchor, but I think it's your problem.

Quote from an email I got directly from Fortress anchors in 2008 on this very subject:
..."One downside of using more chain is that with any “pivoting fluke” type of anchor, such as the Fortress, Dan forth, etc. the extra weight of the chain can sink the flukes below the shank [he actually means sink the shank below the flukes--Med] if you are using a long scope in a very soft bottom, like soft mud. I have attached an image which may help you to visualize this.

To prevent this from happening, you simply need to permanently install the Mud Palms on the anchor, which are included with all Fortress anchors. The Mud Palms will lift the rear of the anchor up and force the flukes to take a more aggressive angle into the bottom. You should also use a shorter scope in a soft bottom when initially setting the anchor, which will keep the shank up so that the flukes will dig in first."...


From Fortress's website (see point #8):Fortress Safe Anchoring Guide


If you have a bunch of scope out, 30ft of chain and you're setting it slowly, odds are it won't work in soft mud. I've had this happen and confirmed what was happening with scuba gear. You are better off setting your danforth with short scope (fortress recommends 2:1), to ensure you are pulling up on the stock enough that it is not below the horizontal and only after it's set you can add your scope to 5-7:1 and back up on it hard.

There is nothing wrong with a danforth style anchor area for your bottom types. I have over a hundred nights at anchor on a Fortress and it worked, but setting it was tricky and required skill. Sometimes I had to try 4 times (but usually got it first time).

While I say there is nothing wrong with the fortress/danforth (I have 3 fortresses aboard) I STRONGY prefer the Mantus anchor or the genuine Bruce for their setting ability. If you get an Mantus, Rocna, or Mansun you'll never go back. Actually... now that I mention it, has anyone ever heard of anyone going back from a next-gen anchor?

Happy anchoring and thanks for the good question!

MedSailor
Even with the new gens I find they set very well when I snub at 2:1 and apply light pressure to get the initial bite and penetration through a soft top layer.. I then drop to 3:1 or so and apply slightly more pressure and then 4:1 and more and then 5:1 etc. By 5:1 it is usually able to hold our boat at 2600 - 2800 reverse RPM.

I have had our Mantus fully set at 2:1 and then hold full reverse wide open throttle.. I find the Mantus sets slightly faster than both the Manson and Rocna but at that point we are talking inches. I have actually gone back to the Rocna as primary just because it fits better on the bow roller than the MS or the Mantus and they all perform tremendously well..

I think my next toy may be an Ultra but I just can't bring myself to have a SS "bling" anchor, despite how well designed it may be... Unfortunately that anchor can not be built in galvanized due to design...
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  #39  
Old 06-28-2013
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Re: Anchor Setting Woes

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maine Sail View Post
.....then hold full reverse wide open throttle.....
I've never gone to such an extreme on any boat, although, I don't object.

However, sHP is very different from boat to boat so that different hulls have enough power to be driven to hull speed. But I scratch my head on this one. When pulling against a set anchor, is the drag of the large hull an issue any more? Does the strength of a 30hp at full throttle pulling against and anchor differ greatly from the 100 hp turbo diesel I have?

My instinct say it does.

I know that a larger boat requires more holding power, so testing it at higher loads makes sense. But my instinct also tells me that that curve required to hold a heavier boat at anchor is more linear than the curve requiring power to overcome the drag of a larger hull underway.

All the better if one could hold at WOT. I'm sure I could pull my crappy CQR out of anything at WOT, but that's not the point. I'm just curious if the WOT test is consistent from one boat to the next. Just trivia.
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Old 06-28-2013
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Re: Anchor Setting Woes

Quote:
Originally Posted by Minnewaska View Post

All the better if one could hold at WOT. I'm sure I could pull my crappy CQR out of anything at WOT, but that's not the point. I'm just curious if the WOT test is consistent from one boat to the next. Just trivia.
Most sailboats do not have the HP, in reverse, to replicate even a 30-40 knot storm. In my opinion any anchor should be able to hold you in up to 60+ knots. If one of my anchors can't hold me at WOT then as far as I am concerned I am simply not properly anchored/set..

Our boat can develop 500-800 (digital load cell confirmed) pounds of reverse pull at WOT (44HP 4 Cylinder Westerbeke with three blade Campbell Sailor).

Our Rocna 35 has been shown in numerous independent tests to hold in excess of 5000 pounds or to exceed the test equipments capabilities.... I have personally pulled it at over 2500 pounds in a very, very soft mud bottom with a 450HP twin screw 30 foot Mako. If our Rocna can't hold the strength of our motor in reverse, at cruise or WOT, then I have other issues...

Your boat has a bigger engine but should also have a bigger anchor and much more windage. Your anchor should ABSOLUTELY hold your vessel firm at full reverse throttle. Don't baby your anchor and you'll sleep a LOT better......

I we can't hit cruise or WOT in reverse we don't consider our anchor "set"...

The storm below whipped up a few nights ago in just a few minutes. The video is about 8 minutes long but shows nearly the entire duration. It happened so fast I never knew it was coming.

*It went from flat glass calm to a recorded gusts of 60 MPH in about 5-6 minutes. (I assumed 35-40 knots but the YC dock house recorded 60 knots)

*It swung our boat 180 degrees on her mooring (how is that "settling" working)...


I had stopped by our boat to grab my FLuke clamp meter and got distracted answering emails. I was below for about 4 minutes when I noted the 180 degree swing and rain beginning. I grabbed my camera and popped my head up into the dodger.

Every time we anchor we are anchored with this sort of event in-mind. We got stuck in a micro burst in the late 90's that put all but two boats on the rocks in the anchorage we were in..

Nothing like a good storm on the boat!!
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Last edited by Maine Sail; 06-28-2013 at 08:52 AM.
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