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post #11 of 33 Old 07-30-2013 Thread Starter
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Give way when hoisting the main?

In my situation as described above. I believe the other captain was technically correct. At some point however common sense and courtesy have to apply.

Having asked him twice to bear away clearly he had the "last clear chance" to do the right thing.

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post #12 of 33 Old 07-30-2013
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Re: Give way when hoisting the main?

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Originally Posted by andrewoliv View Post
In my situation as described above. I believe the other captain was technically correct. At some point however common sense and courtesy have to apply.

Having asked him twice to bear away clearly he had the "last clear chance" to do the right thing.
He may have been technically correct.

But you missed a wonderful occasion to play Jimmy Buffett's A$$hole Song with 100% justification
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post #13 of 33 Old 07-30-2013
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Re: Give way when hoisting the main?

Rules say you are both under power... but I always give wide berth to someone raising or lowering sail. They are restricted in movement in my estimation... I don't EXPECT other sailors or motor-boaters to provide ME the same courtesy though... so I do my best to find a corner, or off channel place to raise sail, so they have to go out of their way for ME to be in THEIR way.

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post #14 of 33 Old 07-30-2013
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Re: Give way when hoisting the main?

Colregs Rule 3 sets a very high bar on what is a 'vessel restricted in ability to maneuver", since this would change the right-of-way rules and the other vessel may not know the situation:

Definition - Restricted in Ability to Maneuver

So there's no way a main-raiser, even with a stuck halyard, will meet that standard so don't go thinking you have right of way, you don't. that's why it's "courtesy", since there are so many things do inhibit (but not legally restrict per the Rule) your ability to change course, and a perceptive and courteous sailor (note that's two things, it takes both) will not insist on his right of way per the Rules.

And also, the rules require a day shape or restricted red/white/red lights to show the world you're restricted.

Or you could get modern and use the radio to let traffic know you need room. That's what a "Securite" call is designed for. I doubt anyone listening would decline to cut you a break.

We had a big, big discussion about this as applied to vessels "fishing" and whether they're "Restricted" or just, uh, sorta restricted but not thereby a Stand-On vessel. I think it was titled, "No, you are NOT fishing" or words to that effect. "you could look it up", as Yogi Berra (or was it Casey Stengel) would say.
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post #15 of 33 Old 07-30-2013
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Re: Give way when hoisting the main?

Isn’t it in the rules that an overtaking vessel must keep clear of the vessel being overtaken? Regardless of sail vs. motor? If so, then a vessel under sail should keep clear of vessels hoisting/dropping their sails? We get a lot of these situations in the Oakland Estuary as where the marinas are, the wind blows from the marina side and the Estuary is fairly narrow. My experience is sailing boats give room. People who are dropping sails also try to be courteous by not turning into the wind directly in front of another boat.

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Re: Give way when hoisting the main?

If it helps you feel better, he looked like an idiot to the other sailors. Everyone gets a halyard or lazy jack tangled someday and we try to give each other room. I would feel stupid and rude cutting someone hoisting off.

That said, since you cannot maneuver when hoisting, good practice is to position oneself such that no crossings will occur even in the event of a minor snafu, even if that means waiting some time for clear water. You are in the position of asking for rights you aint' got.

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post #17 of 33 Old 07-30-2013
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Re: Give way when hoisting the main?

It sounds like you were in a crossing situation. If you were "under power" transmission engaged. Then you were also a power driven vessel. "Technically" you should have abandoned the mainsail and maneuvered to allow him to cross. In ample time.

If your engine was on but the transmission was not engaged " not in use" Then technically you are a sailboat, he is a powerboat and he should have given way.

So were you underway...making way.. with the engine? at the same time you were trying to raise the sail ?

I agree, he should have given you the courtesy of falling off, but I also think at the point of the jam, you needed to put the transmission in neutral.

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post #18 of 33 Old 07-30-2013
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Re: Give way when hoisting the main?

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Originally Posted by JomsViking View Post
The definition of a power driven Vessel is
"b.The term 'power-driven vessel' means any vessel propelled by machinery;"

So You're not correct, unless the engine is propelling the Vessel (i.e. in gear) you're not a powerdriven Vessel.
We always give way but sail in a busy harbor so we expect to not receive the same courtesy. Lot's of other conditions would need to be met relative to day shapes/lights for RAM and if single handed, NUC. Unlikely you'd be able to see the exhaust pumping anyway unless overtaking the other vessel.

JV's comment above is a fun point to discuss though, and I'm not sure what is technically correct. A sailing vessel is defined in Rule 3 (c) as "any vessel under sail provided that propelling machinery, if fitted, is not being used". It isn't explicit either way in the Col Regs, but our instructor was of the opinion (and I agree) that an engine on, even at idle, is in use and would qualify a s/v as a m/v. Keep in mind that rule 18 specifies the burdened vessels as "underway", not necessarily "making way". So there is some precedent that mechanical propulsion does not need to be engaged to have assigned responsibility for ROW.
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post #19 of 33 Old 07-30-2013
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Re: Give way when hoisting the main?

It isn't explicit in the Colregs, and I've heard it argued both ways.

My view, and what I teach my sailing students (and I got the local Coast Guard COTP and his Deputy to concur at an industry lunch since I wanted to know their view since they're the enforcers) is if you have it running but haven't yet put it in gear while you still sail, or take in sail, or charge your battery, means you are NOT a motorboat under the rules, since you're not "propelled".

Now, if I put her in gear, maneuver, then knock it back in neutral for reasons of hull speed, of course I'm a motorboat, just adjusting speed by way of the shift rather than throttle. And I hate to keep saying "day shape" but if you are propelled by both motor and sail, there's a day shape for that! And no one has it, nor do most even know about it (and it's not required in Inland waters if you're under 12 meters long). But in a perfect world, you'd use it when you put her in gear, but not when you fired up the motor in neutral at the end of a sail to "be ready just in case" while you decide to be a cowboy and sail the jetties and harbor.

I know reasonable minds differ on this, but "neutral but haven't used or put it in gear yet, and may never do so if the wind holds and I can sail into the slip" is sailing, not motoring, for purposes of who's the stand-on and give-way vessel).
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Last edited by nolatom; 07-30-2013 at 05:34 PM.
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post #20 of 33 Old 07-30-2013
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Re: Give way when hoisting the main?

Same reasoning to avoid sailboats racing downwind flying spinnakers.

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