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Go Back   SailNet Community > Skills and Seamanship > Seamanship & Navigation
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  #61  
Old 01-27-2014
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Re: Recreational Sailboat vs. Tugboat with Barge: Who Has the Right of Way? - See mor

Quote:
Originally Posted by L124C View Post
BTW, unlit moored barges are common in certain parts of the SF and San Pablo bays.
I am surprised. The Canadian Transportation Safety Board assessed some responsibility to a tug with a poorly lit barge after a collision in English Bay (Vancouver).

Quote:
The tug Jose Narvaez was outbound from Vancouver harbour, at night, towing the coal-laden barge Texada B.C. on a 274 m cable towline. The operator of the pleasure craft Sunboy did not realize that they were approaching a tug/tow combination and passed between the tug and the barge. The propellers of the Sunboy became fouled in the towline, and the pleasure craft was struck by the on-coming barge, and capsized. As a result, some people were thrown into the water and others were trapped within the vessel's enclosed spaces. Of the 14 people who had been on board the Sunboy, nine were rescued and survived, four drowned and one remains missing and is presumed drowned.
Transportation Safety Board of Canada - Marine Investigation Report M99W0133
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  #62  
Old 01-27-2014
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Re: Recreational Sailboat vs. Tugboat with Barge: Who Has the Right of Way? - See mor

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Originally Posted by dabnis View Post
Regardless of what "the book" may say, I am surprised that the question even comes up. Considering to "take on" a ship or tug is like looking at the bore of a 12 gauge shotgun held by the skipper who is politely asking you not to get in his way. "You can think about it, but don't do it".

Paul T
I disagree. Colregs say the stand on vessel must stand on. The reason is the tug guy will be looking at his options before you've even worked out hes a tug towing. He, and only he knows how his tug and tow handle.

If you are not keeping a course he cant work out what to do. Also remember that when he is pulling, the direction of the bow of the tug may have little to do with the direction the tug, line and barge are actually going. Only the tug captain knows.

Best is having AIS so you can see him and he can see you. Then if you hold your course he can make his judgement and get on the VHF to you. Anytime a tug, or ship, asks me to do something I am only too willing to comply. Doesnt worry me if i have to stop, or turn, or whatever, but its much better, as the stand on vessel to keep a good course till asked to vary, imho.

Re: lights on barges... The world over it seems barges lights must be the lowest priority in shipping.
The best one was in Indonesia at night and Nicolle dragged me out of be to work out what the hell the christmas tree of lights was all about. Giving a thought that it could be Santas sleigh or a tug, I told Nicolle to look a LONG way astern to see if she could see a barge with the binoculars. "Nope, no barge, but theres a funny purple haze"

That purple haze was a reflection of the watchmans TV set in the watchmans shed! And we were much closer than I thought. Lolol

The USA may have been better for tow lights than Indonesia, but not much better, and the Caribbean is taking the fight up too


Mark
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  #63  
Old 01-27-2014
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Re: Recreational Sailboat vs. Tugboat with Barge: Who Has the Right of Way? - See mor

Jack, what L124C is referring to is there are a few designated anchorages in the San Francisco Bay Area for moored barges. Moored barges will not always display lights. Barges do display the proper lights while being towed. A majority of barge movements are done after midnight when the winds are down so recognizing the lights is pretty important. The biggest difficulty I have encountered at night are the tug and barge lights tend to get lost in the background of lights on the Bay. I am extra vigilant in looking for lights moving in relation to their background. The designated areas (that I know of) is Quarry Point and the stretch of the San Joaquin River past the Antioch highway bridge. The USCG designated the area north of the new Bay Bridge construction as a temporary mooring field which was reported in the notice to mariners and the coast pilot update.
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  #64  
Old 01-27-2014
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Re: Recreational Sailboat vs. Tugboat with Barge: Who Has the Right of Way? - See mor

Marksoflife, in this case the tug and barge are stand on regardless of all else, He is restricted in munevability due to the channel width within the bay and the barge be pushed or pulled, this particular barge is pretty good size.

I think a lot of problems arises when a skipper says " well the book says " and so " I'm in the right " . A little comon sense and courtesy goes a long way in avoiding a nasty encounter
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  #65  
Old 01-27-2014
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Re: Recreational Sailboat vs. Tugboat with Barge: Who Has the Right of Way? - See mor

Quote:
Originally Posted by poopdeckpappy View Post
Marksoflife, in this case the tug and barge are stand on regardless of all else, He is restricted in munevability due to the channel width within the bay and the barge be pushed or pulled, this particular barge is pretty good size.

r
Well then the sailing vessel is not the stand on vessel.

My posts were about being at sea.

In a channel the tug is the stand on vessel but needs to be aware that others may not realise it, say in areas outside a channel but where the ship etc is constrained by draft. I cant tell if a ship or tug is. They must tell me.

A previous post mentioned San Francisco bay, i didnt read it too carefully, and i havent sailed there, only touristed there.. . But any large port like san francisco, new York, Sydney, English channel, etc is probably going to be all channels so any tug will be the stand on vessel in all likelihood.

But that doesnt give the tug the right to run a sailing boat down. If the tug and barge is unsafe in the channel then it should not be allowed to move. The port authority/traffic control etc should administer its movements... For example it should close the harbour if no other shipping can use the Chanel at the same time as the tug etc

In the oft quoted "the book" the book applies to small boats as well as big boats. Just because we are smaller and at leisure does not mean we are second class citizens in harbour or at sea.

If a tug can't operate on his side of the channel effectively either other shipping must be notified, or the tug banned, or the tugs captain assigned to driving tea pots in the lunch room

Mark
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  #66  
Old 01-27-2014
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Re: Recreational Sailboat vs. Tugboat with Barge: Who Has the Right of Way? - See mor

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Originally Posted by MarkofSeaLife View Post
Well then the sailing vessel is not the stand on vessel.
Yep, crew was correct & the Capt. was wrong. Even in open water Rule2b and common sense/curtesy works best, when it's Rec on Rec it's even more important.
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  #67  
Old 01-28-2014
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Re: Recreational Sailboat vs. Tugboat with Barge: Who Has the Right of Way? - See mor

Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkofSeaLife View Post
I disagree. Colregs say the stand on vessel must stand on. The reason is the tug guy will be looking at his options before you've even worked out hes a tug towing. He, and only he knows how his tug and tow handle.

If you are not keeping a course he cant work out what to do. Also remember that when he is pulling, the direction of the bow of the tug may have little to do with the direction the tug, line and barge are actually going. Only the tug captain knows.

Best is having AIS so you can see him and he can see you. Then if you hold your course he can make his judgement and get on the VHF to you. Anytime a tug, or ship, asks me to do something I am only too willing to comply. Doesnt worry me if i have to stop, or turn, or whatever, but its much better, as the stand on vessel to keep a good course till asked to vary, imho.

Re: lights on barges... The world over it seems barges lights must be the lowest priority in shipping.
The best one was in Indonesia at night and Nicolle dragged me out of be to work out what the hell the christmas tree of lights was all about. Giving a thought that it could be Santas sleigh or a tug, I told Nicolle to look a LONG way astern to see if she could see a barge with the binoculars. "Nope, no barge, but theres a funny purple haze"

That purple haze was a reflection of the watchmans TV set in the watchmans shed! And we were much closer than I thought. Lolol

The USA may have been better for tow lights than Indonesia, but not much better, and the Caribbean is taking the fight up too


Mark
Good point. My "at sea" experience was way before Recreational GPS & AIS, wish we had it then. In any event the old eyeball works pretty well, when you see a ship bearing down on you, it is best to assume he is not/can not going to change course, and do whatever it takes to get out of his way, as quickly as you can. IIRC, at that time, I can't remember any of the other commercial fishing boats "talking" with ships, they just stayed out of their way, except for the Jack Junior, mentioned earlier.

Paul T
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  #68  
Old 01-28-2014
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Re: Recreational Sailboat vs. Tugboat with Barge: Who Has the Right of Way? - See mor

As an unlicensed maritime anything and rookie sailor, I'd defer to the Law of Gross Tonage...
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  #69  
Old 01-28-2014
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Re: Recreational Sailboat vs. Tugboat with Barge: Who Has the Right of Way? - See mor

Quote:
Originally Posted by luhtag View Post
Call them. These guys spend weeks and months at sea so they are more than happy to chat about the crossing situation unless of course it is a special circumstance. Most tugs will have you plotted more than 12 miles out in open water. If you are meeting them in a VTS then kindly understand that they are somewhat restricted even though they may not have a christmas tree lit up.
I was crewing during the Master Mariner regatta on the SF Bay. We were about to cross paths with a out bound tug towing a barge. One of our crew hailed the tug on VHF to ask his intentions. I was stunned when the tug responded that he would maintain position, while about 15 beautiful old wooden boats sailed across his bow.
However, I assume had the tide been ebbing instead of flooding, this wouldn't have been an option.

Last edited by L124C; 01-28-2014 at 11:59 PM.
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  #70  
Old 01-28-2014
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Re: Recreational Sailboat vs. Tugboat with Barge: Who Has the Right of Way? - See mor

" while about 15 beautiful old wooden boats sailed across his bow. "
Any sailor can tell you, brightwork & varnish have absolute right of way regardless of tonnage. Neptune has a special trident for anyone who damages ten coats of varnish.
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