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Departing a marina

8K views 57 replies 27 participants last post by  SVAuspicious 
#1 ·
We left a marina slip this morning and I had some trouble getting out. We were bow in, facing due east. There was a north/northeast wind and the current was pulling south. We cast the lines, turned the wheel and reversed so that the stern would pull south, aiming the bow north. The current and wind pushed the whole boat south without much of a turn. We were drifting farther into the marina sideways without much control. I tried a couple of times to address it with reverse and I couldn't generate enough speed to get the bow aimed north in order to start leaving the marina. I think we spun twice (although I'm not even really sure). I was pretty nervous at this point and finally got the boat headed in the right direction and we got out without incident but I was somewhat shook at the time. Overall, we got out without incident and I kept calm (mostly) but looking back I'm still not sure what I should have done. If you have any thoughts I'd appreciate hearing them. Thanks,
 
#2 · (Edited)
Full keel? I haven't had a chance yet to sit down and draw a picture of your problem, but it sounds as though you were trying to solve your issue with astern power, when you should have been using the thrust over your rudder in forward gear to point the bow through the wind rather than trying to steer in reverse. I posted a video on this on another thread but can't remember the name of the thread.

Edit: Here's a link to the video, it shows a couple of tricks.

 
#10 ·
Part of the problem in reverse is related to the cupping of a fixed prop that maximizes thrust in forward, but quite the opposite in reverse.

I've got a 2 ton, 23' power boat with a 150 hp outboard. The OB allows me to vector thrust, but still the reverse thrust is pitiful and makes the boat awkward when backing in close quarters. I've had this boat for 25 years, so I've had the kind of practice that MarkofSealife recommends.

I also have a 6.5 ton 35' elliptical fin keel sailboat, which I've owned for 21 years, It has a 24 hp inboard diesel and a MaxProp. It handles much better in reverse than the power boat--not that cross wind/current isn't an issue.

The big difference in reverse handling between these boats, IMHO, is that the MaxProp does not have cupped blades. This means that the reverse thrust (same pitch) equals forward thrust. Once you get way on in reverse, the rudder is very effective in steering the boat. You still need to know how to handle cross wind and currents, of course, but the anxiety factor is less with the sailboat.

So, if you have a fixed prop with cupped blades, you are at a particular disadvantage in reverse and need to build your expertise as Mark suggests in another post on this thread.
 
#3 ·
On my Boat the Bow just blows in the wind uncontrollably until I get some water over the rudder. Still I can't back and steer like some of my neighbors do. I let the Bow blow wherever it wants then either back or bow out which ever works. I do not have any current to deal with so that could easily change everything. You don't mention the size weight and keel on your Boat these all affect what you can do. What is your relative experience in general and with this boat in particular.
Directly before my current flat bottom light fin Keel sailboat I was operating an old wooden charter Boat with a giant diesel and wheel (prop) and had to unlearn some tactics I used with all that power and relearned to finesse a bit.
In some cases learn to work spring lines sometimes it all you can do.
 
#4 ·
An interesting and difficult problem.

Most people underestimate the immediate effect of wind and current and underestimate the time to get actual way on the boat to allow steering. We also often 9verestimate the value of our turning prop!

My best method, and this isn't telling u to go suck eggs, is to practice maneuvering often. After 8 years on this boat I still practise this: get 2 close mooring balls and motor around them doing Figure of 8's. Then do it in a stern. Lots of times till the boat learns what u want.
Then touch the bow of the boat to one of the buoys. And do that from down wind, from upwind, from each quadrant...... then do it in astern!

It won't solve your problem specifically, but it will give you more tricks up your sleeve.

:)

I really do practice this stuff on my boat. Slowly I am becomning better :)
 
#6 ·
Thanks Mark - I follow your posts closely and will definitely practice this. I'm in the intercoastal in S. Florida and the current often rips one way or the other. It is much less noticeable in a marina but the think the current and wind combined to work against what I wanted the boat to do.
 
#7 ·
Rule # 1... don't put the rudder hard over until you have some steerage way. It simply acts as a 'crooked brake' and makes all the other forces have more impact than they should.

Back out gently to minimize prop walk, and leave the rudder centered until it can do some good. As a fin keeler once you've got steerage the boat will react quickly.
 
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#12 ·
Re the Max prop.. the reason it works so well in reverse is that the blades rotate around so that in either direction you're always using the same leading edge.

With fixed props, cupped or not, the 'airfoil' shape of the prop blade is working backwards in reverse.. kinda like trying to fly an airplane wing in the opposite direction.

As to leaving a cross-wind or tide slip, being aware of and using prop walk to advantage can often help - though of course at other times it's simply in the wrong direction.
 
#13 ·
Of course, the other point to mention is Can you wait till the current slackens?

In Beaufort 2 weeks ago I really, really, wanted to get to sea now. But I had current coming onto my bow and I would have needed to reverse out with it. Not too difficult but with pylons everywhere much safer to wait till slack wAter. So I did.

Kept throwing floating stuff in to see if current had stopped: Paper. Bras. Sacrificial girfriends. They all floated downstream

I finally threw in a brick and the current didn't effect it, so I pulled out and headed South.

:)
 
#14 ·
I have an Alberg 35 (full keel) with a smallish rudder and serious prop walk to port. I have to back out of a slip that faces east, sometimes with the current with me, sometimes against, depending on the state of the tide. We dock to starboard on floating finger docks. What I do is
1. Set up a spring line from an after port cleat on the boat to a cleat on the portside finger dock then back to a port side winch. cast off and give the boat some push to the other side of the slip.
2. cast off and push the boat toward the port side finger dock. Depending on the wind this may or may not give me a few extra feet of clearance
3. gentle reverse with the ruddent centered to get moving backward. This tends to push the stern to port.
4. as the bow clears, a burst of reverse; the prop walk pushes the stern to port. At that point I tension and sometimes haul on the spring, further swinging the stern. If all goes well, the bow clears with the boat turning to starboard.
5. burst of forward, turning away from the dock and then straightening; loose the spring at the after cleat and haul at the winch. The spring is a floating line so even if it's in the water for a few minutes, it's not going to get in the prop. I get it out fast though.
6. At that point it's just motoring out.
 
#31 ·
So maybe I am dense, but the same problems exist backing ito a slip when there is wind / current. So your challenge is when you arrive.

Backing into a slip whether leaving the dock or entering still mean you have to learn how to back up in reverse with your boat. Prop walk can be your friend once you learn your boat

Personally if I have the option I would prefer bow in...why you ask....easier to control exit with the addition of having line to aid or use as leverage.

Course every slip is configured different.

So you have to do reverse sonetime....pick your poison.
 
#16 ·
I ended up spending the summer in a slip that was very tight getting into and out of. Almost no room for second chances. In the begging it was ugly, but it kept getting better. It was all practice and thinking things through.

The use of a single spring line that I kept in my hand if I had to back out would keep the prop walk in check.

The use of a single spring line left hanging on a hook on a pylon at the end of my slip was the key to getting back in. It would go over a winch on my cabin top, stop the boat and hold it in place if I left it in gear.

By the end of the summer I was nearly an expert. Of course next season I'll be in a different slip...
 
#21 ·
If I understand what happened, I like the idea of reversing out.

Many sailboats (try this on yours) do a great job if you can back directly into the wind. The prop pulls the boat backwards, the rest of the boat hangs like a flag directly down wind from the bow.

Trying to turn the bow into the wind can be tough in a narrow slipway. But if you have to, most boats turn better in one direction than the other based on prop walk. If you pick the right direction of turn, reverse will actually be helpful as the stern walks in the right direction. You can plan with backing and filling and learning about this which will be useful in many situations.

Try messing around with both these techniques away from obstacles in strong winds and learn what it will do. We all went through this, if you didn't hit anything you did good!
 
#36 ·
I have the exact same problem as fmueller does - can't get the stern to swing to starboard while backing out due to propwalk and the typical breeze that want's to blow my bow to stbd.

5. Rig a spring line from the stbd rear to the end of the dock on the stbd side and back to the boat. (I actually thread it through the eye in the dock line that I leave on the dock, so it runs free to retrieve)

#5 wins hands down. Yup - a 60' length of cheap polyprop (floating) line makes leaving the dock, either crewed or not - simple, safe, and almost boring. Throw the boat into reverse, and steer with the line. Little tug pulls the stern stbd, leave it alone and the stern goes to port. Get all the way out, hold the line fast, and the boat neatly spins so it's facing the down the fairway. Pop it in fwd and just drive out. Retrieve the line by letting go of the loose end and pulling on the end that was fixed to the boat. Only real problem I have is folks on the dock running to help me remove the line I "forgot" about. If the engine dies and I haven't yet let go of the line, I can actually get myself back to the dock with it. Once I've got even the tiniest bit of way on in forward I can easily sail all the way out of the harbor.

I'm glad I learned how to spring off a dock or away from a slip. I often use a simpler spring against a few fenders to leave the fuel dock since it's generally downwind in my marina. The pumpout is upwind and thus easier to leave -- cast off and wait a bit to be blown off.


Is this the kind of thing you're referring to, gptyk and mf70?

I also feel like leaving a dock line tied to the cleat where he's looping his stern spring is increasing the risk that the spring line could become entangled or knotted with that line.

If you're used to using this technique, does maintaining tension on the stern spring forward line keep the boat straight enough, or will the bow still fall down towards the port side without using another line? Because my setup is just like this except I have a neighbor boat to port and the wind tends to blow me towards her. So this stern spring foward will keep my stern straight and keep my prop walk from bumping her, but will the bow stay straight enough just from backing against this line?
 
#24 ·
We have the same issue backing out of our slip. Because of prop walk, the boat stern won't reliably turn to starboard when backing, depending on the wind and tide.
So unless the wind and tide are helping my CCW turn, I just back out to port and do a three point turn in the fairway (which we can more or less do in place turning clockwise). It turns out it is far easier to turn 270 deg CW than 90 Deg CCW.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk
 
#25 · (Edited)
The trick with the throttle is a 1 to 3 second 1/2 to 3/4 throttle to get the boat moving then idle or neutral so the rudder will steer the boat.

Both of our school boats are parked nose in port side.

Once we back out we have to take a left turn to leave the fairway. Often the wind is from the port so once we back out it is very hard to make that left turn.

I have two tricks.

In light wind I let the stern float away from the dock a little so the boat is angled to the left. Wheel centered I give it half throttle in reverse for about 3 seconds then idle. The prop walk straightens the boat and gives me some speed. Then as the bow starts to clear the pilling I can turn the wheel right to turn the boat left.


In heavier wind, if I don't think I can make the left turn I do the same start to back but just turn the wheel left and back out all the way.
 
#26 ·
I have the exact same problem as fmueller does - can't get the stern to swing to starboard while backing out due to propwalk and the typical breeze that want's to blow my bow to stbd.

I have used several solutions:

1. Have crew push on the docks with a boathook or some such.
2. Slam it into reverse, hit it hard, and hope I've got enough way on to steer in reverse when I take it out of gear. My boat has a 1:1 transmission in forward, and a 2:1 transmission in reverse so to get any thrust at all the engine is really revving.
3. Just back all the way out, as by the time I'm out of the slip I'm moving fast enough for the rudder to work.
4. Spin a 270 between the slips.
5. Rig a spring line from the stbd rear to the end of the dock on the stbd side and back to the boat. (I actually thread it through the eye in the dock line that I leave on the dock, so it runs free to retrieve)

#5 wins hands down. Yup - a 60' length of cheap polyprop (floating) line makes leaving the dock, either crewed or not - simple, safe, and almost boring. Throw the boat into reverse, and steer with the line. Little tug pulls the stern stbd, leave it alone and the stern goes to port. Get all the way out, hold the line fast, and the boat neatly spins so it's facing the down the fairway. Pop it in fwd and just drive out. Retrieve the line by letting go of the loose end and pulling on the end that was fixed to the boat. Only real problem I have is folks on the dock running to help me remove the line I "forgot" about. If the engine dies and I haven't yet let go of the line, I can actually get myself back to the dock with it. Once I've got even the tiniest bit of way on in forward I can easily sail all the way out of the harbor.

I'm glad I learned how to spring off a dock or away from a slip. I often use a simpler spring against a few fenders to leave the fuel dock since it's generally downwind in my marina. The pumpout is upwind and thus easier to leave -- cast off and wait a bit to be blown off.
 
#27 ·
I only go into and out of a slip a few times per year.. in water winter storage. I choose slack high and hopefully with light winds... I am usually shorthanded or single handing. Going in is almost never a problem.

Leaving I usually walk the boat out to so the mid ship is at the end of the finger and climb aboard. I try to direct the stern where I want it to be so that the boat continues to make way and then when the bow is well clear I begin with forward and a hard turn. I may have to *spin" to boat using forward and reverse. I don't attempt this in cross currents or gusty winds. PERIOD. No rush.
 
#28 ·
I started backing into the slip which has made departures much easier. I make the 180 degree turn in open space and then get enough sternway on to steer effectively into the slip. Only once this year were the gusty winds and currents so contrary that I aborted the backing in and put her in bow first. I use the spring line technique when I have to make a reversing turn to port in tight quarters.
 
#29 ·
I also back into position on my dock, making the turn in open water. I use a prepositioned spring line to back the boat against the dock in a predominant cross wind that wants to keep me off the dock. Being in shallow water means my swing keel is often mostly up, which makes the bow that much more likely to blow off. The spring line to a mid ship cleat makes all the difference.
 
#30 ·
Good tips here... I won't repeat what's above, and my experience may be different as we have full keel boat, but three things that have worked for us:

1) We back into our slip, generally, because that puts bow into prevailing breeze and keeps the boat drier (our cabin doors aren't totally watertight). But in the end we're flexible... if it's calm we back in so if it's blowing next time we go out it's easier to get out... if it's blowing when we come in, we pull in forward and save the backing manouver for next time we go out when it's (hopefully) calmer conditions.

2) Most sailboats naturally would end up stern to the wind, that's just the way they like to be, so if you're not already moving along under power you're going to have a heck of a time getting your bow to point up into the wind... don't fight it and just back down the fairway until you have plenty of room to get some power up to spin into the wind.

3) If prop walk in reverse is part of your issue (may not be, but with full keeler it is), try to break the habit of idling in reverse... I did this for a while thinking I wasn't fighting prop walk because I wasn't throttled up... in fact, I find my prop walk is the worst at idle. For control in reverse I now put it in reverse, give it some throttle to get moving backwards and some water going over the rudder, then I throttle back down AND SHIFT INTO NEUTRAL... that eliminates my prop walk and lo and behold and I can steer left and right with the rudder. If I need more speed I just throttle up in reverse for a few seconds then go back to neutral... and I can still drop it into neutral at idle when I want prop walk because it's the way I want my stern to go.

Of course, this advice is worth every penny you paid for it :wink
 
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