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Go Back   SailNet Community > Skills and Seamanship > Seamanship & Navigation
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  #21  
Old 01-21-2007
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Sailaway21,
The Pardey's sail on boats that can heave-to but a lot of modern boats donít have an underbody that lends itself to that technique. Personally I prefer a boat that will heave-to and it was a requirement for my present boat. I took a real beating once in a boat that didnít do well hove-to.

The funniest thing about bad weather is that the only time I have been really scared on a boat has been on a large ship in moderately bad weather. It was a cargo ship that rolled very slowly and hung at the end of the roll for what seemed like forever. I much preferred the quick roll of my own sailboat. Itís true that yachts donít get the slamming load that a ship gets but the load can still easily exceed the breaking point under some circumstances.
All the best,
Robert Gainer
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  #22  
Old 01-21-2007
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Also, the fin keels on many new boats aren't really appropriate for heaving too. Many fin keels really need to have water moving past them to prevent leeway, where the older full keels did not. The fin keels also don't break up the water the way the full keels did, and do not really generate a protective slick as the Pardeys have often described.
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  #23  
Old 01-21-2007
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Methinks it will depend on the size of the fin when it comes to heaving to. The other factor I suspect would be the hull shape forward. Raven has what would be considered today to be a fairly sizeable fin and is not as flat forward as many more modern designs. She heaves to quite happily although I've never had to try it in heavy (say, over 30 knts) weather, only practice runs in medium conditions.
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  #24  
Old 01-22-2007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tartan34C
Sailaway21,
The Pardey's sail on boats that can heave-to but a lot of modern boats donít have an underbody that lends itself to that technique. Personally I prefer a boat that will heave-to and it was a requirement for my present boat. I took a real beating once in a boat that didnít do well hove-to.

The funniest thing about bad weather is that the only time I have been really scared on a boat has been on a large ship in moderately bad weather. It was a cargo ship that rolled very slowly and hung at the end of the roll for what seemed like forever. I much preferred the quick roll of my own sailboat. Itís true that yachts donít get the slamming load that a ship gets but the load can still easily exceed the breaking point under some circumstances.
All the best,
Robert Gainer
I don't think you guys care, but one of the first things I learnt when I started sailing boats with a stay sail, they were Vauriens then, was how to heave to.

We had to learn that in case one got thrown over bord, and I found that most dinghies have pretty good abilities at doing this.

As far as modern larger boats, I have no idea how they perform at heave to, but shouldn't it be indicated or isn't it mentioned in the boats's characteristics papers?
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  #25  
Old 02-21-2007
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Heaving to

Is there a good way to judge how well a boat will heave-to in heavy conditions without actually doing it under those conditions? I have only practiced heaving-to in lighter winds (10-15 knots), and the boat does exactly what it is supposed to. With all of this talk about many modern boats not heaving-to very well, I was wondering if a boat that heaves-to in lighter conditions might not do as well in higher winds when it becomes more critical. Will a boat that heaves-to just find with a large genoa under light winds have different characteristics heaving to under heavy winds?

Thanks! (I'm just learning how to sail)
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  #26  
Old 02-21-2007
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Mike-
"Will a boat that heaves-to just find with a large genoa under light winds have different characteristics heaving to under heavy winds?"
Yes. How a boat handles is a complex set of three-dimensional balances. If you stick a pin down through the deck and hull, parallel to the mast, the forces pushing ahead/behind that pin will rotate the hull around it. That's one center of balance, for the forces pushing on the sails (and the freeboard, the exposed area of the hull above waterline).
The mast may or may not be near that center of balance on a sloop. But as you change the sails from big light air sails to smaller storm sails...the balance point shifts as well. Especially as the big genoa changes to a storm jib and the force probably moves forward.
At the same time, there is another center of balance for the hull and keel, resisting rotation and sideways motions of the hull in and against the water. And as the hull heels over, that one will change too.
With all the motions and changes, boat building is still something of a black art because you can't just sit down and balance one set of factors, you need to compromise them all, against all the others, at each different speed range, heel, etc. A really good [read: experienced or lucky!] designer can find some sweet spots and design a boat that is sweet and well-mannered in a wide range of conditions, but just looking at two boats at a show...you or I would never know.
So, reputation for the designer and boat are something to consider. And then getting to sail on one, to see how it really handles in different conditions. There are "horses for courses" and no one design does everything equally well. Part of that is why some boats will have a reputation as good bluewater boats, that are also kinder in rough wx, while others are great liveaboards--in sheltered waters.

Which goes back to Sailaway's original comments. Dunnage doesn't come with a boat, it isn't a structural part or a component. It is up to the skipper to load "equipment" on board including damage control supplies. Some boats, like an Islander36, may have a huge open companionway that makes the boat nice and light, airy, roomy when below. Arguably a good boat--but one of the first definitions of an "offshore" boat would be a wee narrow companionway, which is structurally stronger and easier to secure in a storm.
Losing a hatch on a sailboat is probably rare these days, when they are properly dogged and secured. Lash a dinghy onto the hatch (a load it was never made to endure) or leave it partly open (so green water can get under it and tear it off) and the problem is not a bad hatch--but human error.

The recent loss off Chile apparently was more complicated than that, from the many comments and long discussions what really didn't make it out on the news was that the mast came down ON the steering pedestal, incidentally making the boat impossible to steer. Add a hatch failure (for whatever reason) and a battery bank breaking loose (again, for whatever reason) and a medical problem (reported as a leg cut to the bone)...

Well, that's the ocean. Things can often get much worse very quickly. Not making the first mistake, or being able to respond to it, requires skill, experience, and luck.

G-
"mentioned in the boats's characteristics papers? " What's that?
Something mandated with new boats in the EU? Remember, here in the US no one rates them by offshore category, it is "here's your boat, where's my money?"
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  #27  
Old 02-21-2007
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I will mention one here that might have been missed: Find a way to secure down the captain!!

For example, if your nav station faces port/stbd, and you are in a sea, you will be flung in/out while trying to plot. A REALLLL nuisance (that eventually makes me sick, incidentally). Lee cloths, or some way to prop you up. I found the most comfortable place in a bad sea was in the floor in the salon, not on a berth (or sea berth). You might too.

Just some other thoughts. Nice thread.

- CD
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  #28  
Old 02-21-2007
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Of course being down low, as close to amidships as possible is going to be more comfortable... but the seating selection there usually sucks...
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You know what the first rule of sailing is? ...Love. You can learn all the math in the 'verse, but you take
a boat to the sea you don't love, she'll shake you off just as sure as the turning of the worlds. Love keeps
her going when she oughta fall down, tells you she's hurting 'fore she keens. Makes her a home.

óCpt. Mal Reynolds, Serenity (edited)

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To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
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  #29  
Old 02-21-2007
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"Of course being down low, "
Hunh. And when the going gets rough I've always been happier gripping the chart in my teeth, sitting on the rail and getting some nice fresh air instead of being cooped up below.
Bit hard on the computer electronics, but surely it won't be long before you can navigate on a Palm Treo in a baggie?
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  #30  
Old 02-25-2007
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Tartan34,
I was under the impression that the Pardey's used a running bridle on the sea anchor rode, led aft, to limit fore-reaching as well as achieve the desired angle of attack to oncoming seas. Am I reading you correctly in stating that a fin keel boat will refuse to ride in any semblence of order under this arrangement? Would it be the case that, with so little lateral resistence as compared to a full keel boat, one would have to continuously tend to the running bridle to acheive a semblence of order? Very interested in your further thoughts on the matter. From another thread, I gather that you may feel the drogue towed astern could be more effective. I would suspect that the difficulty with that device would be the number of units deployed and also it's unlikelyhood of recovery (which given the circumstances encountered may be a low price for survival).

Dog,
What are you referring to regarding leeway? When on a leeshore? Or in open sea? I would grant the point in the former, but assume it to be of little significance in the latter.

Has anyone here deployed the parachute version of the sea anchor? Is the old lifeboat conical sea anchor, equipped for storm oil canister, inferior?

It does seem that the manufacturers do little to imply otherwise than that their boats are well equipped for most all conditions-or perhaps they mean to imply that they are equipped and warranted for no conditions, express or implied! Tartan34's dwelling on the possible dual usage of gear already on board for makeshift repairs, etc...seems spot on and his thought process of "what if" is just what I was hoping to get out of this thread. I look forward to further input.
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