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Go Back   SailNet Community > Skills and Seamanship > Seamanship & Navigation
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Seamanship & Navigation Forum devoted to seamanship and navigation topics, including paper and electronic charting tools.


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  #51  
Old 03-14-2007
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Quote:
One issue with the drogue is that the vessel is still running before the wind. This requires an alert helmsman. That may not be a given in the conditions foreseen. The danger of broaching or pitchpoling remains. The drogue is also not readily adjustable. Once deployed it is unlikely that one would be able to add or subtract to it due to the strain and, thus not be able to tailor it to changing conditions. The sea anchor does not suffer from this as we are not trying to run. Obviously, running will put much less stress on the drogue's rode.
While those points may be true for an improvised drogue or drogue of other design, I don't believe they hold true for a Jordan series drogue.

The whole point of deploying a Jordan Series Drogue is to eliminate the danger of broaching or pitchpoling, which, according to the testimonials and the research data, the JSD does quite nicely. The JSD, by design, adjusts the loads it places on the boat dynamically without the need to add or subtract drogue length.

That is the reason JSD's are designed to fit the boat... they aren't one-size fits all devices—the number of cones, the thickness of the rode, and the spacing and length of the rode are modified slightly for the displacement and windage of the vessel.

Finally, it is designed such that a vessel can deploy it and essentially wait out the conditions that required it—it is as Don Jordan says, a "fire and forget" device, much like an ejection seat for pilots is....

If you haven't read the data, research and testimonials on the Jordan Series Drogue, I would highly recommend that you go to www.jordanseriesdrogue.com and do so.
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You know what the first rule of sailing is? ...Love. You can learn all the math in the 'verse, but you take
a boat to the sea you don't love, she'll shake you off just as sure as the turning of the worlds. Love keeps
her going when she oughta fall down, tells you she's hurting 'fore she keens. Makes her a home.

—Cpt. Mal Reynolds, Serenity (edited)

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  #52  
Old 03-14-2007
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Dog,
i read some of the testimonials, I'll read the whole thing later. I didn't find them really persuasive, but they are short. I must admit, if Mr. Jordan is correct, it will be the first "fire and forget" device I have ever heard about or seen at sea. (sarcasm intended, although not towards you)
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  #53  
Old 03-14-2007
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One of the testimonials I read that was very revealing:

Quote:
"My wife, two sons, and I recently sailed our catamaran from Miami to Tortola, B.V.I. We took the offshore route through Providence Channel, and stayed north until 65 west. Two days out and 150 miles from land we were caught in a full gale, wind speeds to 40 knots and wave heights 16 to 20 ft. The boat began to surf down into the troughs under bare poles. I had pre-rigged the drogue so that all I had to do was to drop the chain over the stern. In less than one minute the world went from life threatening to easy motion and one knot drift.

I feel strongly that without the drogue we would have gone end over end. We stayed on the drogue for 24 hours"...
Also, from Steve Dashew's website:

Quote:
The second situation could occur in survival weather - absolute horrendous conditions - with the boat disabled, in which case our choice would be the Jordan Series Drogue.
The photo above is of the Jordan Series Drogue. There are multiples of these miniature drogues attached to a long rode. They are very effective at keeping the stern into the waves in extreme conditions.
Also, I'd like to point out this passage from this website:

Quote:
Why the U.S. Coast Guard thinks the series drogue is better than a para-anchor in storms.

The two conventional drogue configurations are the cone drogue and the parachute drogue/sea anchor. Both types have been used successfully in a variety of applications. A third type of drogue called a series drogue has been developed as part of this investigation. The series drogue is intended to provide near optimum performance under storm conditions and to avoid some of the problems encountered with cone and parachute drogue/sea anchor.

The series drogue offers the following desirable features:



If pre-rigged and coiled down into lazeret, the drogue is simple and safe to deploy under difficult storm conditions. The boat, under bare poles, will be either running off lying ahull. The anchor can be slipped over the stern and the line payed out. The drogue will build up load gradually as it feeds out.



It is almost impossible to foul it or entangle it enough to make the drogue ineffective.



The drogue ride-s beneath the waves and is not affected by the following sea even if a wave should break in the vicinity.



There are cases on record where a cone drogue has been pulled out of the face of a following wave, and even instances where the drogue has been catapulted ahead of the boat. It is difficult to weight a cone or parachute drogue so that it will ride at a sufficient depth to avoid the wave motion. As discussed previously in this report, a weight causes the drogue to collapse when the towline goes slack.



When the boat is in the trough of a large wave, the towline tends to go slack thus permitting the boat to yaw. With the series drogue, the anchor sinks pulling the drogue backwards and taking some of the unwanted slack out of the towline.

When a breaking wave strikes, the drogue must catch the boat quickly to prevent a broach. The series drogue, since some of the cones are near the boat where towline stretch is low, will build up load faster than a conventional cone or chute at the end of the towline/bowline. A computer study shows that two seconds after wave strike, the series drogue will develop 40% more load than an equivalent cone or chute. Similarly, if the breaking wave strikes at an angle to the towline rather than directly astern, the series drogue will build up load much faster than the conventional types.

The series drogue is durable as demonstrated by the testing described in this report. The load on each individual element is low. No single failure can make the drogue ineffective.



The series drogue can double in function as a spare anchor line and can use the boat's regular anchor as a weight. All 90 cones weigh only four pounds.



U.S. Coast Guard Report CG-D-20-87 sec 6-5....


Series Drogues and boat design

“With a series drogue deployed, a well-designed and properly constructed fibreglass boat should be capable of riding through a Fastnet type storm with no structural damage. Model tests indicate that the loads on the hull and rigging in a breaking wave strike should not be excessive.



Many sailors are reluctant to deploy a drogue from the stern because they fear that the boat may suffer structural damage if the breaking wave strikes the flat transom, the cockpit and the companionway doors. The model tests do not show this to be a serious problem. The boat is accelerated up to wave speed and the velocity of the breaking crest is not high relative to the boat. The stern is actually more buoyant than the bow, and will rise with the wave. However, the boat may be swept from the stern. The cockpit may fill and moving water may strike the companionway doors. The structural strength of the transom, the cockpit floor and seat, and the companionway doors should be checked at a loading corresponding to a water jet velocity of approximately 15 ft./sec.


When a boat is riding to a series drogue no action is required of the crew. The cockpit may not be habitable and the crew should remain in the cabin with the companionway closed. In a severe wave strike the linear and angular acceleration of the boat may be high. Safety straps designed for a load of at least 4g should be provided for crew restraint. All heavy objects in the cabin should be firmly secured for negative accelerations and drawers and lockers should be provided with latches or ties which will not open even with significant distortion of the hull structure”.

U.S. Coast Guard Report CG-D-20-87 sec 6-4




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You know what the first rule of sailing is? ...Love. You can learn all the math in the 'verse, but you take
a boat to the sea you don't love, she'll shake you off just as sure as the turning of the worlds. Love keeps
her going when she oughta fall down, tells you she's hurting 'fore she keens. Makes her a home.

—Cpt. Mal Reynolds, Serenity (edited)

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Last edited by sailingdog; 03-14-2007 at 10:33 PM.
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  #54  
Old 03-15-2007
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Just a quick note to say that my club showed Irving Johnson's "Around the Horn" this evening.

Maybe the solution is not a drogue, but a time machine. Those sailors were incredibly tough.
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  #55  
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Dog,
The CG, as only the CG can, state that being pooped is not a serious problem as shown in the model tests. They then go on to describe how the aformentioned pooping can structurally damage the boat, flood the cockpit and cabin, and turn the human head into a cantalope (4 Gs). And this is a favorable review?
Note the references that apply to cone sea anchors and the ones that apply to parachute anchors. I have read of some attaching chain to their parachute anchor, although the Pardey's did not seem to need it.

I can readily see though how this device might be more desirable on your trimiran versus either type of sea anchor.
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  #56  
Old 03-15-2007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Valiente
Just a quick note to say that my club showed Irving Johnson's "Around the Horn" this evening.

Maybe the solution is not a drogue, but a time machine. Those sailors were incredibly tough.
Valiente-

Part of the problem is that the boats they were on were designed quite differently than most boats we see out there today.


Sailaway21--

What did you expect from the USCG... of course they have to contradict themselves... it is a CYA move.
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Telstar 28
New England

You know what the first rule of sailing is? ...Love. You can learn all the math in the 'verse, but you take
a boat to the sea you don't love, she'll shake you off just as sure as the turning of the worlds. Love keeps
her going when she oughta fall down, tells you she's hurting 'fore she keens. Makes her a home.

—Cpt. Mal Reynolds, Serenity (edited)

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Still—DON'T READ THAT POST AGAIN.
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  #57  
Old 03-15-2007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sailingdog
Valiente-

Part of the problem is that the boats they were on were designed quite differently than most boats we see out there today.
I'm aware of that. Few have a 50 foot bowsprit, for one thing!

I meant that the nature of the work was such that the seemingly incredible (like lashing a flogging sail on a yardarm in 80 knots) was made commonplace because no one really questioned the safety or the wisdom of doing it: it had to be done, and so was done.

As for design, I think a case can be made that those 300 foot steel barques were probably the apogee of sail freighter design in that they held together (mostly) at a time when passenger ships like the Titanic were sinking due to an incomplete knowledge of materials science or a particularly empirical approach to materials testing (see "Tacoma Bridge Disaster, 1940", for instance).

At the risk of starting another thread, it has been proposed that even better and more efficient bulk cargo sailing vessels could be made today from better materials than the overbuilt (or maybe not...) plate steel of the last age of sail (1900-1939), but that the one expense that would doom the project is that you can't get cheap labour willing to face death quite so casually today, even if you could train them.

Maybe with "wing" style sail foils, there would be no need to go aloft, but what struck me about the Johnson film (and Alan Villiers' and Eric Newby's stories of "the grain ships") was the huge amount of muscle power required to work those ships...and the lack of things like winches because they couldn't endure the conditions.
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  #58  
Old 03-15-2007
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Valiente-
"on a yardarm in 80 knots" I was looking at floating barns, ergh, cruise ships, and the way that big slabs go to sea now with the real expectation they will never meet rough weather. And I realized, shipping today is not so much about ships and the sea--but about the incredible way global weathercasting has changed since satellites have gone up.
80 knots? No way, someone has to really screw up to get hit by that instead of detouring around it, these days. What a change since the tall ships had to go round the Horn, and commit to a trip a month before anyone could tell the weather they'd simply have to deal with en route.

But as to apogee...That might be giving them too much credit for design and engineering. When I flew on Lockheed Electras they were "solid old reliable proven aircraft" but in their first few years, they were called dangerous deathtraps. Any technology takes some time to find and displace the bugs, those iron sailing ships were, by that time, simply very mature and proven technology, with their kinks long worked out.

I wonder what the first captain said, when the first seacook told him "This time, we're gonna bring FIRE on the boat. No really, fire, its gonna be perfectly safe on a wood boat, full of tar and resin. I've got it all figured out."
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  #59  
Old 03-15-2007
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Fire, wood, tar, resin and in the case of old New England boats—whale oli. Good combination... crispy on the outside, chewy on the inside...

In many ways that hasn't changed all that much... polyester resin, vinylester resin and even epoxy are rather good fuels once they get going. Fire is still one of the biggest dangers to any boat.
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New England

You know what the first rule of sailing is? ...Love. You can learn all the math in the 'verse, but you take
a boat to the sea you don't love, she'll shake you off just as sure as the turning of the worlds. Love keeps
her going when she oughta fall down, tells you she's hurting 'fore she keens. Makes her a home.

—Cpt. Mal Reynolds, Serenity (edited)

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  #60  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hellosailor
I wonder what the first captain said, when the first seacook told him "This time, we're gonna bring FIRE on the boat. No really, fire, its gonna be perfectly safe on a wood boat, full of tar and resin. I've got it all figured out."
Sounds like the first twenty guys to invent the cannon. Didn't you know there were 20 guys? Ah, that's because only the 21st guy lived to take the credit...
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