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Need opinions on skipper judgement

5K views 33 replies 24 participants last post by  wind_magic 
#1 ·
Hello everyone,
I've been a Sailnet reader for awhile, but I rarely post. Would like some opinions since my 'skipper' is a big fan of web forums and not a a big fan of my suggestions. ;) We sail a 39 ft boat that weighs around 14,000 pounds with our five-year old. We're pretty much 'bay sailors' who just cruise on the weekends. Our daughter has been sailing with us since infancy and feels comfortable on the boat - maybe a little too comfortable. We had a smaller vessel previously and she would stay in the cockpit with us while we were under sail. Now, on the 'big boat' she like to go down below by herself and spend time down there while we sail. I don't have a problem with that when conditions are light and when we are not heading upwind. Recently, we had a nice day sail in 17 -ish knot winds that were gusting just over 20 knots. At the point we turned around to head back (at my suggestion) I was at the helm and stated that the sails would need to come down or our smallest crew member would need to don her vest and immediately join us in the cockpit with some reefing to be done. We were in a 'narrow' body of water, 25 knot winds at this point, with frequent tacks necessary to head upwind and my skipper thought I was completely unreasonable to think there were any safety issues. Note that our boat is also a newer model where we have a virtual dance floor to go flying across with few handholds - especially at a height suitable for someone who is 43 inches tall. I have now been told I should get a motor boat or stay at the dock. Has anyone ever encountered similar issues and if so, how did you handle them?

Love to sail but.....
 
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#3 · (Edited)
LOL, I bet there are 15 men looking at this right now thinking....."there is no way I am going to answer that"!

I'll let the old salts handle reefing in 25 knot winds, I am a newbie, so I usually reef in 20 knot winds because of my lack of experience.
 
#4 ·
Got that right, Sarge!

First, we need to know to whom you are the Admiral of, so we can thoroughly trounce him.

Second, we will need a photo of him for Giulietta's records, he is the official record keeper.
 
#5 ·
Why does this thread read like a virtual game of "hot Potato"

On second thought... I'll go onto the next thread claiming not to have seen this one.

PS-I would be hard pressed to let someone interfere with my Childs safety.
 
#6 ·
Now lets not be sexest here. We are all assuming that Driver is the Admiral and Skipper is her husband. Could be that the wife is the more adventurous one in this family you know.

That being said, whoever was NOT concerned should be relieved of the helm, the child should have ALREADY had on some form of PFD, and the offender should have been sent below to kneel down and see what it feels like to a little one. :D
 
#7 ·
The skipper is responsible for the safety of all persons aboard, adult and child, in all conditions. Newbie sailors, in my experience, tend to be either overly cautious or -- worse -- overly confident. As they gain experience, and the sea whacks them a few times, they begin to achieve a more desirable condition of being knowledgeable, experienced, and.....cautious.

In my opinion, with a 39' light displacement boat it would have been prudent to reef before the wind reached 25 knots, especially if you were beating to windward in a narrow channel.

Remember, however, that there are several ways to reef safely and that ANY reduction in sail area can be very helpful in relieving strain on the boat and the crew. For example, you can just roll up the headsail....all the way. That leaves you with only the main to deal with. Under main alone, most boats will tack to windward OK, but will do so VERY slowly. Losing the headsail has the effect of a brake...you slow WAY down. And, usually, the boat's motion becomes more liveable and you can better work on deck while you reef the main. Or, just drop it entirely if conditions suggest. Then, roll out as much genoa as you need. Most boats will tack very well to windward under genoa alone.

No one can tell you how best to deal with the skipper when you don't agree with his/her decisions. But equipping yourself with some knowledge of sailing, and participating in, e.g., sail raising, reefing, steering, navigation, etc.....can earn you big points when it comes to challenging the skipper.

Bill
 
#9 ·
Okay, okay, I'll give a serious answer. First of all, the rules on my boat for my son are: At the dock, life jacket above deck, off below deck. When the boat leaves the dock, the life jacket does not come off him (he's six by the way). Tell me, when its the three of you and something bad happens, an emergency, no matter what the wind or how many reefs, are you going to have time to put a life jacket on your five year old when your boat is sinking? As far as guests go on my boat, I give in to the person with the least amount of comfort. I want everyone to feel safe and have a good time.:)
 
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#10 ·
On our boat, when there's a difference of opinion, the more conservative one rules. Always.

I admit that it doesn't happen very often - we've both got about the same level of experience and have both had the same Coast Guard & Navy training.
 
#12 ·
I beleive your asking how to get your point across to your significant other that you don't feel safe playing that intense. If that's the case and they are not interested in listening to your opion. I would suggest that you inquire whether they would rather single hand on the windier days. That's the polite way of saying "screw you guys I'm going home".
 
#13 ·
I see at least three separate issues being confused here.
1-When is it time to reef.
That's a question of both safety AND better boat speed, unless you have seen the polars for your boat or done a lot of testing, most people keep the sails up too long and they actually are LOOSING SPEED TOWARD THE MARK by not reefing early enough.
Which also brings up point #2,
CREW SAFETY. I don't care how young/old/agile you are, if a boat bounces the wrong way and you stuff a counter or table into your ribs, you are breaking ribs. That's just unsafe.
If there are insufficient handholds and you've got a wide fat open boat below--that needs to be looked at. For any sized crew. Now for kids, IF the kid knows what is going on, and IF the captain calls out each tack so there's some warning, all a kid has to do is typically sit down on the floor and they're perfectly safe from tack to tack. It's the ones they don't expect that can get them, and then you need to consider lee cloths and the v-berth or quarterberth and a house rule about being IN it.

Finally, there's the basic rule DON'T ARGUE IN FRONT OF THE KIDS. Whatever the two of you have to do to hash this out, work it out off the boat, and present a united front, because that's the only way it will be accepted with minimal argument by your daughter.

Helmet and PFD down below? I don't think so. If it is that rough, or you are that uncomfortable on the boat, it is time to head home--or stay home, and find some reason to say "Dad's going sailing without us today" without making it into a "because we're not tough enough" inferiority thing for the daughter. Turn it around the other way: "We're going someplace special, and poor daddy can't come with us!"

Kids routinely used to climb trees, fall down, break bones, skin their knees, chip teeth on monkeybars, and no one thought there was anything unusual or wrong about it. You guys may need to just take some time and discuss comfort levels and acceptable risks one day. Someplace quiet, away from home, while there's a babysitter taking care of your daughter.
 
#14 ·
It sounds like both of you were thinking of different things. The boat was safe although sail reduction would usually be desirable. Most standard sails are set for 15 knots and by 25 require a halving of sail area for the same force.
The child's safety was a concern. He or she could easily fly from one side to the other and break something, unless wedged in a quarterberth which would not be pleasant.
Even being in a cockpit with short tacking going on in 25 knots would not be great, if your legs would not reach the floor and you could not brace yourself let alone relying on the child to change sides at the right time versus starting late and being thrown against the cockpit sides easily breaking something.
Sometimes spouses have been known to say unkind things when stressed and defensive. So I hear.
 
#15 ·
Disclaimer: I don't have much recent experience sailing (crewed for a couple years 25 years ago, sailed a couple time recently, incl. on ASA 101 and 103 courses), but...

ISTM the child was safer down below, on the sole, probably, than up in the cockpit with all that tacking going on. Probably would've been best to call out "prepare to come about," etc. as you maneuvered, so she could prepare herself. I assume everything below was securely stowed, so there wouldn't be things flying around.

I am surprised she wasn't already wearing a PFD. Were you guys wearing yours?

Jim
 
#16 ·
Then let that training guide you. I have a kid nearly six and just short of 40 pounds. I follow essentially the same rules as Bestfriend on the old 33 foot racer, because it snaps around a lot. We allow no PFD below on the new-to-us full keeler because the motion is significantly different, and in waves of any size he's in his bunk watching a DVD anyway. On deck or on dock, it's ALWAYS with a PFD, because his swimming is still a little lacking, and being a skinny kid, he's got a buoyancy deficiency, so to speak.

If he's on deck in heavy weather, he gets clipped on. Being a kid, he tends to get himself lower (right down to lying on the deck) the harsher it gets. He seems immune to seasickness.

His only hesitation is in stepping off the boat (about an 18 inch drop) because occasionally we are blown off a few feet, as we are at a finger end and I prefer a bit of space. But he already knows to stand on the breast line to bring the boat closer to the dock, but at 40 lbs. and a 13 tonne boat, that takes a little while to work! ("DADDY! MAKE THE BOAT MOVE IN!")
 
#18 ·
My hat's off to all you brave souls who put yourselves squarely in the middle of a domestic disagreement!!
Brave? Dunno as "brave" would be the correct adjective in this context :p

Ummm...you guys are all single right??
:D :D :D
Nope! But, in addition to not much current sailing experience, got no kids, either. So I guess my opinion really ain't worth spit :)

Jim
 
#19 ·
Driver,

For sailhandling in challenging conditions, we always preferred to have the tiny kids belowdecks. The situation you described is a good example of why it is important to have a safe place below where kids can sit securely when weather conditions or other circumstances demand the full attention of parents. In our experience, the bigger the boat the harder it is to find those places, so they normally have to be created. Lee clothes on the settees, and an athwartship leecloth on the v-berth, worked well for us when our kids were tikes. Even now that the youngest are elementary-school aged, these modifications still get a fair bit of use for naps etc.

My wife and I have different ideas about reasonable heeling angles, but I defer to her and we are the boat you see with a reefed main at 15 knots. And a partially furled genny at 18 knots. Two reefs at 22. You get the idea. Fortunately our boat sails well even undercanvassed.

But in defence of your skipper, there are many boat designs (ours is one of them) that will SAIL much more comfortably, and faster, than they will motor. In our boat, sailing to weather in 20-25 knots of wind, with the boat reefed down, is a comfortable, easily managed affair. Motoring upwind in the same conditions is another matter altogether: Pure misery, and SLOW! We empirically proved this many times when the boat was new to us. Fortunately we eventually gave the boat a chance to demonstrate its prowess in adverse conditions. My only point is that there are some circumstances when dropping sails and motoring is neither the best nor safest answer.

Then again, sometimes it is. In general, with young kids aboard, the more conservative approach should be the default.
 
#21 ·
Sail training or marriage counseling?

Thanks to all for your replies. Our boat motors well and takes chop way better than our old one. Skipper and I always wear our PFD's when we sail and the 'no PFD required for the little one' when she's down below was only recently introduced by Skipper (I reluctantly when along with it). I do not feel that our boat cannot handle the conditions we sailed in nor do I feel that I cannot handle heel....really, I'm not one of those super 'chicken' wives! Our daughter was in her aft cabin which really keeps her quite contained and we did notify her of impending tacks. I just don't think she would be safe if she stepped out of her cabin at the 'wrong' moment -which is entirely possible with a five-year old. Sounds like it's time for a family meeting, huh? Oh, maybe we should have taken up bowling instead....
 
#24 ·
Hmm... it depends... if your child was down below and in a proper sea berth, then it would probably be far safer for her there. I do agree that there were some safety issues that needed to be raised, and that your captain needs to be flogged for not thinking so.

If the boat had accidentally gybed in conditions like that, it is very possible that anyone on-board could have been seriously injured. Proper handholds and keeping in habit of using one-hand for yourself goes a long way to keeping you safe, and I'd encourage you to teach your child that.

Hello everyone,
I've been a Sailnet reader for awhile, but I rarely post. Would like some opinions since my 'skipper' is a big fan of web forums and not a a big fan of my suggestions. ;) We sail a 39 ft boat that weighs around 14,000 pounds with our five-year old. We're pretty much 'bay sailors' who just cruise on the weekends. Our daughter has been sailing with us since infancy and feels comfortable on the boat - maybe a little too comfortable. We had a smaller vessel previously and she would stay in the cockpit with us while we were under sail. Now, on the 'big boat' she like to go down below by herself and spend time down there while we sail. I don't have a problem with that when conditions are light and when we are not heading upwind. Recently, we had a nice day sail in 17 -ish knot winds that were gusting just over 20 knots. At the point we turned around to head back (at my suggestion) I was at the helm and stated that the sails would need to come down or our smallest crew member would need to don her vest and immediately join us in the cockpit with some reefing to be done. We were in a 'narrow' body of water, 25 knot winds at this point, with frequent tacks necessary to head upwind and my skipper thought I was completely unreasonable to think there were any safety issues. Note that our boat is also a newer model where we have a virtual dance floor to go flying across with few handholds - especially at a height suitable for someone who is 43 inches tall. I have now been told I should get a motor boat or stay at the dock. Has anyone ever encountered similar issues and if so, how did you handle them?

Love to sail but.....
 
#30 ·
Proper handholds and keeping in habit of using one-hand for yourself goes a long way to keeping you safe, and I'd encourage you to teach your child that.
One hand for the boat is my kid's mantra. If you have the social-activity pleasant/sailing activity stupid typical 12 foot wide saloon, you might wish to retrofit brass uprights and hip level handholds below. When the kid is down there, get vinyl-covered, velcro-secured pool noodles or other rigid foam-type substance (pipe insulation works) and put it up to her head height around those handholds and uprights. If she takes a tumble, she'll slam into a cushioned pole instead of, say, the corner of the nav station or the edge of the companionway steps. You could even put drawer pulls on the steps themselves (they don't have to hold your weight, but hers). When guests are aboard, remove the cushioning and stow it under a berth, if you care about appearances. It's easy to cover the "leading edges" of cabin cabinetry with split foam tubing, and it's not like you'll be taking on a lot of weight.

In a couple of years, and a couple of avoided trips to the face-stitching clinic, your kid should have the experience, the strength and the co-ordination to avoid most falls and can simply follow your own broken-rib avoidance scheme.

My kid' (five going on six) has already done a header down the companionway, which is why I have given this a fair bit of thought. I am a big believer in swinging around the boat like an ape, figuring that standing upright with hands at one's sides is strictly a dockside maneuver.
 
#25 ·
Hello,

My wife and I have 3 kids - girls ages 13 and 9, and a son, who is 6. WE have been sailing for 5 years now, starting on a 22', then a 28', and now a 35'. When we are under way, if the kids are on deck they need to wear a PFD. If they are below they don't.

When the wind picks up and the boat heels, I will notify them before we change tacks (or gybe). My wife is great about heeling, and doesn't complain until we heel more than 20 degree. To be honest, I don't much like heeling more than 20 degrees either.

When the boat is heeling, the kids will sit on the high side if they are on deck, and on the lower settee (or cabin sole) if they are below. Moving around below can be difficult, and they have, on occassion, fallen down. Fortunately, they have not been hurt. Yes, they could probably be safer somewhere else, but you know what? They have also fallen off bicycles, skateboards, and scooters and gotten a few bumps and bruises doing that too.

Personally, I don't care if they stay on deck or go below in rough weather. When it's stessful for me (docking in difficult conditions, lower sail on a windy day, etc.) I ask them to stay in one place and to not speak to me for a while. Sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't.

Good luck,
Barry
 
#26 ·
When we were kids - up until about 8 or 9 years old - we always wore lifejackets. We were good swimmers but the water is very cold. We whined, begged and tried to take them off but every time we did, the boat turned around and my father tied up for the day. No arguing, no discussion - sailing was over.

On the rare occasions that I have children aboard, same rule applies. As far as the down below versus in the cockpit issue goes - if the wind is up I'd sooner have the child up where I could see them with a lifeline firmly attached.

That said - sailing is not a democratic exercise and when you leave the dock the skipper's word is law. SO - you need to decide that you and the offspring are going sailing in winds up to say 15 knots or 20 or whatever your comfort level is. Just do it nicely, don't argue, don't be aggressive about it. Just let the other half know that you think it's better to stay home if you're not enjoying yourself. Things will probably change...
 
#27 ·
Rick-

I was going to go the multihull argument route about no-heeling, but decided not to since you had already played that card... ;) It's true though... trimarans or cats... not much heel...no real danger of being tossed across the cabin in heavy weather, and a much lower tendency to broach. :D
 
#29 ·
I have a 5-year old daughter and we have the PFD above and no PFD below rule. When it comes to heeling aks her what her favorite thing about sailing is and she says the tipping over (heeling). I am very careful to call the tack before hand and during.
We have had no issues with this. As for rough weather i feel safer with her down below.
 
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