ALL coastal cruisers have radar... - Page 4 - SailNet Community

   Search Sailnet:

 forums  store  


Quick Menu
Forums           
Articles          
Galleries        
Boat Reviews  
Classifieds     
Search SailNet 
Boat Search (new)

Shop the
SailNet Store
Anchor Locker
Boatbuilding & Repair
Charts
Clothing
Electrical
Electronics
Engine
Hatches and Portlights
Interior And Galley
Maintenance
Marine Electronics
Navigation
Other Items
Plumbing and Pumps
Rigging
Safety
Sailing Hardware
Trailer & Watersports
Clearance Items

Advertise Here






Go Back   SailNet Community > Skills and Seamanship > Seamanship & Navigation
 Not a Member? 

Seamanship & Navigation Forum devoted to seamanship and navigation topics, including paper and electronic charting tools.


Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
  #31  
Old 09-06-2007
sailingdog's Avatar
Telstar 28
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: New England
Posts: 43,291
Thanks: 0
Thanked 11 Times in 11 Posts
Rep Power: 13
sailingdog is just really nice sailingdog is just really nice sailingdog is just really nice sailingdog is just really nice sailingdog is just really nice
Sailaway-

I never said that most ships don't keep a good watch... however, there are many that do not... it doesn't detract any from the ones that do keep a good watch...it is just a fact. Many ships don't keep a good watch. If there are 1000 ships out there, and 30 of them aren't manning a proper watch... then that's is far too many IMHO, especially near a busy port. I've seen too many cases, and don't see any point in trying to convince you of the fact. You've got two actual incidents I've relayed to you. I don't have the time or the energy to convince someone who's mind isn't open. I'm not the only one saying it either...

According to the document Arbarnhart dragged out, it is about 5%... and that is way too many, considering how many ships are out there nowadays.

The good companies and ships aren't the problem... it's the bad ones that you have to worry about... but you can't often tell one from the other from just looking at the ship. Some companies pay their people well and keep the standards of training and skill high, others don't.

Then there are the idiots who just can't help themselves... look at the Exxon Valdez... it's kind of difficult to say that he wasn't well trained or certified... he was a drunk though...which basically negates all the training and certification.

I think part of your problem is that you're too biased, having worked for one of the better companies to understand the reality of it. A lot of companies and ships cut corners... and most of the time it doesn't matter...

While you can't see into the bridge when you're right next to them... if you're half a mile off, looking into the bridge is quite easy with binoculars. I keep a pair in the cockpit... maybe you've heard of them... they're like telescopes, but lower magnification and mounted in pairs.

Last point... I don't believe that foreign flagged ships are held to the same standards of training and certification that US-flagged ships are. Have you spent any time on a foreign owned and flagged vessel??? The majority of the world's shipping doesn't go on US-flagged ships, and their crews aren't USCG certified... Just because the USCG has high-standards, doesn't mean that the other countries do.

Maybe you're being so defensive because you think I'm talking about you... I'm not... and if you're guilty of not keeping a good watch and have it bothering your conscience, that's your problem.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sailaway21 View Post
Dog,
You've got one actual incident that you've observed, the rest being anecdotal. Oh, I forgot the container ship on Buzzard's Bay, a place I have never seen a container ship, a place that virtually no container ship would have an interest in going-and it must have been a pretty small ship too!

It is not the point of watch-keeping to which I object, it is the broad and somehow authoritative brush with which you paint, when, in fact, you have just about zip for actual knowledge of how affairs are conducted on board merchant ships. Case in point, it would not be at all unusual for you to not see anyone in the wheelhouse of a container ship. The bridge deck is at least twenty feet deep and, at seventy feet or more above the water, I'd be amazed at how you could see anyone on the bridge. The mate on watch could be five feet abaft the window and you'd never see him.

Your assertions do not pass the smell test either. We've got a $100 million ship laden with $50 million in cargo, with a mate on watch who has years of education and, at a minimum, has sat through a week long USCG exam where the relavent section's passing grade is 90%, and he is very well paid as well as very knowledgeable of the fact that if he collides or runs aground-he'll most likely be held liable as he is the professsional. And you purport to tell us that many of them do not keep a good watch.

I will cut you some slack by acknowledging that you don't see very many deep sea ships in your neck of the woods. The longshoremen and inland congestion put the kibosh on Boston as a thriving port many years ago. The smaller the ship, the less rigorous the training.

And, I will admit that accidents happen. But, I do think if you're fair you'll be forced to admit that most keep a good watch; far better than the average boater, sail or power.
__________________
Sailingdog

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Telstar 28
New England

You know what the first rule of sailing is? ...Love. You can learn all the math in the 'verse, but you take
a boat to the sea you don't love, she'll shake you off just as sure as the turning of the worlds. Love keeps
her going when she oughta fall down, tells you she's hurting 'fore she keens. Makes her a home.

—Cpt. Mal Reynolds, Serenity (edited)

If you're new to the Sailnet Forums... please read this
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
.

Still—DON'T READ THAT POST AGAIN.

Last edited by sailingdog; 09-06-2007 at 10:13 AM.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #32  
Old 09-06-2007
arbarnhart's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: North Carolina
Posts: 761
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Rep Power: 8
arbarnhart is on a distinguished road
A short follow up. I am no expert and lack experience in these matters. I just looked up data to back up what my brother told me and what SD an others here were telling me. The more I think about the 5% number, the more it scares me. That is the rate of reported collision or contact (what other kind of contact is there?) events. My guess (no hard data here, but I think it is a reasonable assumption) is that the vast majority of watch lapses don't result in an accident. Also, it doesn't take into account situations in which other boats high tailed it out of the way in time or incidents that were undetected and/or unreported. The last situation is really unnerving. I know I am stepping back into antecdotes, but I have read a few trip stories where boats were capsized by an unknown large ship. I am choosing to believe my brother and SD on this one. I mean no disrespect to those who have high standards for watch keeping. I applaud that.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #33  
Old 09-06-2007
deniseO30's Avatar
1934 Chickering
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Bristol pa
Posts: 6,320
Thanks: 52
Thanked 99 Times in 89 Posts
Rep Power: 10
deniseO30 will become famous soon enough deniseO30 will become famous soon enough
wow this thread is still running!

keep it up!..
__________________
Denise, Bristol PA, Oday 30. On Tidal Delaware River, Anchor Yacht Club. New Website!
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

My boat is for sale.
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #34  
Old 09-06-2007
camaraderie's Avatar
moderate?
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: East Coast
Posts: 13,877
Thanks: 0
Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts
Rep Power: 15
camaraderie is a jewel in the rough camaraderie is a jewel in the rough camaraderie is a jewel in the rough
That is the rate of reported collision or contact

Well contact incidents can be running into a buoy or a dock rather than colliding with another ship. I scanned the whole report and the 5% or so rate is collisions or contacts in a year vs. the number of registered vessels. In other words, a commercial vessel has a 1 in 20 chance of hitting something and doing damage over the course of a year of operation in Britain. Noteworthy for purposes of this discussion is that NO leisure craft lives were lost due to these contacts and collisions. The lives that were lost in leisure craft were entirely the result of accidents...2 in a CANAL where the craft overturned...and 4 in and open dinghy type boat that overtruned in coastal waters.
So...while I agree that watchkeeping in coastal and shipping channel areas must be strictly adhered to by boaters, the actual risk of collision with a ship are quite a bit less than 5%. In fact...I'd put a decimal point and maybe a zero in there before the 5%...but that is just my opinion. Without any basis in statistics, my own opinion is that far more boats are lost due to poor navigational procedures (including watchkeeping and maintaining a position fix) than from collisions at sea.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #35  
Old 09-06-2007
sailingdog's Avatar
Telstar 28
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: New England
Posts: 43,291
Thanks: 0
Thanked 11 Times in 11 Posts
Rep Power: 13
sailingdog is just really nice sailingdog is just really nice sailingdog is just really nice sailingdog is just really nice sailingdog is just really nice
Cam-

There's no doubt that poor navigation practices are more dangerous than commercial ships... however, in a very busy port area, there are more than enough commercial ships for them to be a worry.
__________________
Sailingdog

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Telstar 28
New England

You know what the first rule of sailing is? ...Love. You can learn all the math in the 'verse, but you take
a boat to the sea you don't love, she'll shake you off just as sure as the turning of the worlds. Love keeps
her going when she oughta fall down, tells you she's hurting 'fore she keens. Makes her a home.

—Cpt. Mal Reynolds, Serenity (edited)

If you're new to the Sailnet Forums... please read this
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
.

Still—DON'T READ THAT POST AGAIN.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #36  
Old 09-07-2007
Here .. Pull this
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 2,031
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Rep Power: 8
Sailormann will become famous soon enough
Quote:
Every vessel shall at all times maintain a proper lookout by sight and hearing as well as by all available means appropriate in the prevailing
cicumstances and conditions so as to make a full appraisal of the situation and the risk of collision.
"by all available means appropriate in the prevailing circumstances and conditions" should be read as a complete clause, so if it's sunny, good weather and there is no reason to assume that conditons are dangerous, not having the radar on would not be grounds for liability. However, if it is dark, foggy, or if visibility were somehow otherwise reduced and if the boat was equipped with radar, and there was no logical reason not to be operating it, liability would almost definitely be assigned.

Conserving battery power would probably not be considered a logical reason, particularly if the boat were equipped with an engine-driven alternator capable of charging the batteries...
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #37  
Old 09-07-2007
Here .. Pull this
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 2,031
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Rep Power: 8
Sailormann will become famous soon enough
Quote:
Not one night off Cork my friend. Our transmission had failed, and I called and called and called to try to find out if he could see me. The Irish Coastguard eventually chimed in, knowingly. The big merchant ship just sailed on, answering no-one, in very clear conditions. I had to be there too... I had come a long way.

Not one night about 250 miles out either, same circumstances. A fishing flotilla, zig-zagging about in a wierd dance. They wanted fish it seems, above all, and answered nothing.
You can't assume that all of the merchant seamen out there can speak or understand English. I would venture that at least 50% of them can't. It may be the case that the Captain and perhaps the First Officer are required to be able to communicate in English, but I would doubt that every watchkeeping officer is required to be fluent.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #38  
Old 09-08-2007
Owner, Green Bay Packers
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: SW Michigan
Posts: 10,318
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Rep Power: 12
sailaway21 is just really nice sailaway21 is just really nice sailaway21 is just really nice sailaway21 is just really nice
Sailormann,
Actually english is the only language you will hear between ships and all watch-keeping officers will speak it. Other languages may be spoken on other channels, but you'll hear virtually only english on ch. 16 VHF. You hail Karachi Port Control in the same language you do the Sandy Hook Pilots or Cabo de Palos Radio! In the maritime community, english truly is the international language.
__________________
“Scientists are people who build the Brooklyn Bridge and then buy it.”
Wm. F. Buckley, Jr.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #39  
Old 09-08-2007
sailingdog's Avatar
Telstar 28
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: New England
Posts: 43,291
Thanks: 0
Thanked 11 Times in 11 Posts
Rep Power: 13
sailingdog is just really nice sailingdog is just really nice sailingdog is just really nice sailingdog is just really nice sailingdog is just really nice
Actually, English is the international language in many professions. I believe it is required in Aviation as well, among others.
__________________
Sailingdog

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Telstar 28
New England

You know what the first rule of sailing is? ...Love. You can learn all the math in the 'verse, but you take
a boat to the sea you don't love, she'll shake you off just as sure as the turning of the worlds. Love keeps
her going when she oughta fall down, tells you she's hurting 'fore she keens. Makes her a home.

—Cpt. Mal Reynolds, Serenity (edited)

If you're new to the Sailnet Forums... please read this
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
.

Still—DON'T READ THAT POST AGAIN.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #40  
Old 09-09-2007
Idiens's Avatar
Larus Marinus
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Brussels
Posts: 1,756
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Rep Power: 8
Idiens is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by arbarnhart View Post
..the "collision and contact" rate was 53 and 41 per 1000.
Wow! And those are just the UK flagged vessels. It makes road traffic sound safe.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

By choosing to post the reply above you agree to the rules you agreed to when joining Sailnet.
Click Here to view those rules.

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the SailNet Community forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
Please note: After entering 3 characters a list of Usernames already in use will appear and the list will disappear once a valid Username is entered.
User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

 
Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may post attachments
You may edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Production blue water boats JakeLevi Boat Review and Purchase Forum 73 07-31-2009 11:07 PM
Navigating with Radar Jim Sexton Seamanship Articles 0 03-29-2002 08:00 PM
Radar Basics Jim Sexton Seamanship Articles 0 11-14-1999 08:00 PM
Radar Basics Jim Sexton Cruising Articles 0 11-14-1999 08:00 PM
Radar Basics Jim Sexton Her Sailnet Articles 0 11-14-1999 08:00 PM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 01:54 PM.

Add to My Yahoo!         
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
SEO by vBSEO 3.6.1
(c) Marine.com LLC 2000-2012

The SailNet.com store is owned and operated by a company independent of the SailNet.com forum. You are now leaving the SailNet forum. Click OK to continue or Cancel to return to the SailNet forum.