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post #11 of 38 Old 09-24-2007
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Cameron-

If the boat has standard spreaders, versus swept back spreaders, and the shrouds connect at the same point on the mast as the forestay, the mast is supported at that point in THREE directions, but not the fourth. It can pump—which can lead to the mast fatiguing and failing. I didn't say that it was always the case, which is why I said IT MAY NOT BE SUPPORTED. It really depends on the individual boat in question.

As Tartan34C has pointed out... the use of running backstays, jumper stays or swept spreaders can offset this risk...but without one of the above, it is certainly a possible risk.

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Originally Posted by Hartley18 View Post
SD, you're kidding, right? On every fractional rig I've even seen (including our own) the side-stays connect at the same point as the forestay.

Granted, the angle might not be as great as from the top of the mast to the back of the boat (a backstay) which is an optional extra on our rig, but I cannot see how you can say it "may not be supported".

--Cameron

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Last edited by sailingdog; 09-24-2007 at 08:16 AM.
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post #12 of 38 Old 09-24-2007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sailingdog View Post
Cameron-
If the boat has standard spreaders, versus swept back spreaders, and the shrouds connect at the same point on the mast as the forestay, the mast is supported at that point in THREE directions, but not the fourth. It can pump—which can lead to the mast fatiguing and failing.
Sailingdog,
You are right in that description. But have you seen any boats where that applies and the boat is large enough so that it matters. I think the smaller boats really don’t have a problem. But nevertheless you are right and I should have said something about the configuration you pointed out. I just don’t see it as a problem under any circumstances that come to mind. Now if you try to cross an ocean in a boat like that it’s a very different story.
All the best,
Robert Gainer
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post #13 of 38 Old 09-24-2007
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I can't think of one off-hand, but given the variety of boats that have come out over the years, I'm sure that they've made at least a few with this problem.
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Originally Posted by Tartan34C View Post
Sailingdog,
You are right in that description. But have you seen any boats where that applies and the boat is large enough so that it matters. I think the smaller boats really don’t have a problem. But nevertheless you are right and I should have said something about the configuration you pointed out. I just don’t see it as a problem under any circumstances that come to mind. Now if you try to cross an ocean in a boat like that it’s a very different story.
All the best,
Robert Gainer

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You know what the first rule of sailing is? ...Love. You can learn all the math in the 'verse, but you take
a boat to the sea you don't love, she'll shake you off just as sure as the turning of the worlds. Love keeps
her going when she oughta fall down, tells you she's hurting 'fore she keens. Makes her a home.

—Cpt. Mal Reynolds, Serenity (edited)

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post #14 of 38 Old 09-24-2007
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We sail on jib only sometimes. Ours is a fractional rig with no backstay -- shroud chainplates are a foot aft of the tabernacle. But givent this boat is rigged for a 240 sqft spinnaker, I reckon it can handle a 70 sqft jib okay.

Sailing upwind is difficult with headsail only; and to come about, you really have to work up enuf speed to get your nose thru the wind. Once you do, it's easy -- just leave the jib backsheeted a few seconds and you'll fall off nicely. May cause lee helm, which can put more wind in your sail than you want. OTOH, jibing on headsail only is stress-free -- no boom crashing over. Just keep your lazy sheet taut so the jib doesn't wrap around the forestay.

We reached home last weekend in 20+ knots on jib only. Our harbor was almost DDW, and we feared 3' swells on our stern could lead to accidental jibes. So we left the mainsail in the cuddy & flew the jib. It kept the nose out of the waves and pointed downwind, held speeds down to manageable levels, reduced our rolling moment, and carried us 7 miles in just over an hour.

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post #15 of 38 Old 09-24-2007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hartley18 View Post
..and since I don't have a backstay, I'd love to know how I'm going to get "weird bends in the mast".

If it was a really big blow, I could understand the shrouds parting and the whole thing going overboard, but I don't understand how the mast can be unsupported with only a jib up.

--Cameron
No backstay??? That definitely changes things.

Why no backstay???
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post #16 of 38 Old 09-24-2007
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Sailing with a jib is the way we make our sail only landings.
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post #17 of 38 Old 09-24-2007
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In heavy winds/seas I've been known to only fly the Jib/Genoa or a piece there of..., my boat is a fractional rig and I've never had an issue. Now I would NEVER fly the chute with anything but a full main (never with a reef). Hope that helps. gh
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post #18 of 38 Old 09-24-2007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sailingdog View Post
Cameron-

If the boat has standard spreaders, versus swept back spreaders, and the shrouds connect at the same point on the mast as the forestay, the mast is supported at that point in THREE directions, but not the fourth. It can pump—which can lead to the mast fatiguing and failing. I didn't say that it was always the case, which is why I said IT MAY NOT BE SUPPORTED. It really depends on the individual boat in question.

As Tartan34C has pointed out... the use of running backstays, jumper stays or swept spreaders can offset this risk...but without one of the above, it is certainly a possible risk.
Hokay.. I see where the mis-understanding is. On the last two boats I've owned (both fractional rigs with diamonds), the shrouds do all connect at the same point on the mast, but the mast IS correctly supported in THREE directions by the stays being led to chainplates AFT of the mast - forming a 3-point star on deck.

Granted, this set-up limits how far you can let the boom out downwind (but hey, a dead run is slow anyway) and the mast would be far better supported by side stays+backstay (4 points, a bit more complicated), but where does the "pumping" come from??

I'm thinking of changing the rig to swept spreaders, backstay + lowers, so I'd like to understand how this works..

Thanks for your patience

--Cameron
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post #19 of 38 Old 09-24-2007
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We knew a jBoat that was dismasted returning offshore from Bermuda with a reefed main, no jib, in a 50 knot blow. Cause? Mast whip w/o a jib to balance the force. I would think that wind velocity should be considered.
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post #20 of 38 Old 09-24-2007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hartley18 View Post
...but where does the "pumping" come from??
As the headsail fills, it pulls the forestay attachment point on the mast forward... as the sail empties, say during a tack, the mast springs back, and then as the sail fills again, it gets pulled forward again... do this over and over again...say short-tacking up a channel in heavy wind, the repeated loading and unloading of the mast is generally referred to as "pumping", and can lead to the mast, shrouds and stays fatiguing... with the mast being the most affected, since it is aluminum, and aluminum fatigues the most readily. IIRC, stainless steel has to be loaded to a certain strain level before it starts to fatigue.

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You know what the first rule of sailing is? ...Love. You can learn all the math in the 'verse, but you take
a boat to the sea you don't love, she'll shake you off just as sure as the turning of the worlds. Love keeps
her going when she oughta fall down, tells you she's hurting 'fore she keens. Makes her a home.

—Cpt. Mal Reynolds, Serenity (edited)

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