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Go Back   SailNet Community > Skills and Seamanship > Seamanship & Navigation
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Seamanship & Navigation Forum devoted to seamanship and navigation topics, including paper and electronic charting tools.


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  #11  
Old 03-08-2008
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Still-

It says it was a Manson Supreme... I have the Rocna on my boat.
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You know what the first rule of sailing is? ...Love. You can learn all the math in the 'verse, but you take
a boat to the sea you don't love, she'll shake you off just as sure as the turning of the worlds. Love keeps
her going when she oughta fall down, tells you she's hurting 'fore she keens. Makes her a home.

—Cpt. Mal Reynolds, Serenity (edited)

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  #12  
Old 03-08-2008
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OK Thanks

Basically new to all this computer stuff and dont always take advantage of whats obvious I guess...Kind of like the fuel gage when learning how to drive a car..
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Old 03-08-2008
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Experience of dragging a drogue

Sailing between Palma de Mallorca and Algiers in 1977 in a very small yacht (22ft), I was hit by a violent storm (60 knots constant recorded by Cross Med) with waves of 30ft breaking.
I was running too fast with a 1sqm stay sail. This imposes a very vigilant watch not to be rolled and for how long can you be vigilant? I put a drogue at the stern and dragged it. It was immediately easier to control the direction, BUT the waves started to cover the stern and fill the cockpit. I had to let go the drogue, losing it and carried on for 6 more hours to run, the wind getting calmer. It was exhausting and I am not sure I could have done it much longer as sometimes the bow was IN the water for a length of time that seemed not to end... I was very lucky I could run towards Morocco with 300 nm to go.
I am now in Australia on a 60ft sloop just back from 10 months in the Pacific.
I have ordered an 18ft para-anchor, smaller than recommended (24ft) in order to reduce the effort on the gear. In order to reduce the shocks a long (330ft) NYLON (very extensible) double braided rope seems essential.
I hope to be able to drift as slowly as possible towards a coast, when running is the only other option and is fatal. I also hope to be able to go down and rest instead of getting exhausted.
Of course, these are hopes as I have not tested it yet (hope never!), but I would not run again, even with a drogue aft, and the bow is made to meet the sea.
I respect all opinions and just hope this helps the debate...
Francois
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  #14  
Old 03-08-2008
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Francois

Francois:

I have no blue water experience at all.... please take theas as questions not questioning you...

Do you think a 22' boat would not get crushed buy a breaking wave if held bow into big waves?

Your bigger boat would handle a drogue very differently...more free board..etc.?

These are questions I have thought about...so I will ask your valued opinion..

And Welcom to Sailnet..
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Old 03-08-2008
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Equaregis-

What kind of drogue were you using. Being pooped is generally not reported with a Jordan Series Drogue, but is often common with a larger parachute style drogue.

Quote:
Originally Posted by equaregis View Post
Sailing between Palma de Mallorca and Algiers in 1977 in a very small yacht (22ft), I was hit by a violent storm (60 knots constant recorded by Cross Med) with waves of 30ft breaking.
I was running too fast with a 1sqm stay sail. This imposes a very vigilant watch not to be rolled and for how long can you be vigilant? I put a drogue at the stern and dragged it. It was immediately easier to control the direction, BUT the waves started to cover the stern and fill the cockpit. I had to let go the drogue, losing it and carried on for 6 more hours to run, the wind getting calmer. It was exhausting and I am not sure I could have done it much longer as sometimes the bow was IN the water for a length of time that seemed not to end... I was very lucky I could run towards Morocco with 300 nm to go.
I am now in Australia on a 60ft sloop just back from 10 months in the Pacific.
I have ordered an 18ft para-anchor, smaller than recommended (24ft) in order to reduce the effort on the gear. In order to reduce the shocks a long (330ft) NYLON (very extensible) double braided rope seems essential.
I hope to be able to drift as slowly as possible towards a coast, when running is the only other option and is fatal. I also hope to be able to go down and rest instead of getting exhausted.
Of course, these are hopes as I have not tested it yet (hope never!), but I would not run again, even with a drogue aft, and the bow is made to meet the sea.
I respect all opinions and just hope this helps the debate...
Francois
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You know what the first rule of sailing is? ...Love. You can learn all the math in the 'verse, but you take
a boat to the sea you don't love, she'll shake you off just as sure as the turning of the worlds. Love keeps
her going when she oughta fall down, tells you she's hurting 'fore she keens. Makes her a home.

—Cpt. Mal Reynolds, Serenity (edited)

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  #16  
Old 03-08-2008
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I agree that going blue waters in a 22ft yacht is quite risky to start with,but there is every year a race for them from Cornwall to the Carribbean...
A big heavy boat does not like receiving big waves from aft. A big heavy boat is also very difficult to bring back in line when it has started showing its side to the wave... It would certainly behave much better vis a vis pitchpoling. The risk of being rolled is still big... I believe that a small, very light boat, could lift its bow over very big waves... again, question of faith, because the experiences are few.
The trouble is that we dont know until it happens... This forces modesty...
We can only share the logics of our choices and make our own decisions.
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Reply to Sailing Dog

Hi Sailing Dog,
I was using a small cone in heavy fabric as they did them in these days, with a square opening about 1 1/2ft by 1 1/2ft and 3 feet long. The cone was opening in a circle of 2 to 3 inches diameter.
I had 40ft of ordinary rope.
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  #18  
Old 03-08-2008
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yes ,yes

I know the race.. I finished Ellen MacArthur's book not to long ago..good read if you havent yet..

I always discount ( not the right word ) to some extent what racers do as they are H##L bent on winning at risk of life and limb.. and will make way untill something breaks usually...

What I have read about chutes is the mast being the strongest deck feature then also being the recommended final attachment point for a sea anchor ( parachute anchor )... as the forces SD is talking about are very static with one and not dynamic ,elastic tensions as a drogue would be... This static load is what I would personally worrie about in a small boat being held against the face of a monster wave...is there enough flotation to not be sucked bow into the wave?

Experience is the best teacher and you have leaps and bounds more then I...

Last edited by Stillraining; 03-08-2008 at 09:24 PM.
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  #19  
Old 03-08-2008
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I'd disagree that the loads on the sea anchor attachment points are static. As the wave motion cause a parachute sea anchor to move, it can load and unload the lines fairly suddenly.

The mast isn't the strongest deck feature unless it is a keel stepped mast.
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Telstar 28
New England

You know what the first rule of sailing is? ...Love. You can learn all the math in the 'verse, but you take
a boat to the sea you don't love, she'll shake you off just as sure as the turning of the worlds. Love keeps
her going when she oughta fall down, tells you she's hurting 'fore she keens. Makes her a home.

—Cpt. Mal Reynolds, Serenity (edited)

If you're new to the Sailnet Forums... please read this
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
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Still—DON'T READ THAT POST AGAIN.
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  #20  
Old 03-08-2008
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anchoring or running?

The first consideration is in: Have I got enough room to run? Running with or without a drogue needs room to run (less room with a drogue). If the wind pushes to the coast, how long can you run? That is where I think that the hove to (with a very aft-rigged small sail, no jib!), or a para-anchor is very useful, because you delay your (fatal) encounter with the coast.
If there is plenty of room to run comes the second consideration: How competent and rested are the available helmspersons to control the run? And how sick is the rest of the crew? Hove to is resting.I understand that a para-anchor with a very long flexible rode (to avoid the shocks/unloads) provides the same feeling... Hope it is true
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