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Go Back   SailNet Community > Skills and Seamanship > Seamanship & Navigation
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Seamanship & Navigation Forum devoted to seamanship and navigation topics, including paper and electronic charting tools.


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  #21  
Old 03-26-2008
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A FANTASTIC BOOK! A must read if one wants to get a good basic understanding of the Colregs and Maritime Law. I have the latest edition.
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  #22  
Old 03-26-2008
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Yamsailor,
It seems you and I went to the same school of Collision Regulations. Regarding your article (which I found to be well done), I think you should avoid the use of the term CBDR. While you and I and many others know it, it is not possible to do in most pleasure boats because they lack the facility to check range. I think pleasure boaters should be concerned if any other boat is on a steady bearing and pay close attention to it. (one use for the dreaded hand bearing compass)
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There is a tide in the affairs of men,
Which, taken at the flood, leads on to fortune;
Omitted, all the voyage of their life
Is bound in shallows and in miseries.
Shakespeare, Julius Caesar IV, iii, 217
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  #23  
Old 03-26-2008
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Plumper,

I think it depends on the type of boating. I was in a situation where I chartered a sailboat in the Adriatic Sea off the Croatian coast. I was 30 nm off shore and I noticed a rather large ship at CBDR. I think the concept is useful for pleasure boaters--if and this is a BIG IF, they have some formal training in Piloting and Coastal Navigation.

That being said--I hear what you are saying.

..and thank you for the compliment on the article.

Last edited by Yamsailor; 03-26-2008 at 11:03 PM.
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  #24  
Old 03-26-2008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sailaway21 View Post
Actually, in most cases, it doesn't complicate things at all. He's free to change course or speed any old way he wants as long as risk of collision is not present. An often missed subtlety to the rules; there is no stand-on or give-way vessel if no risk of collision is present. Which leads to the court decisions that have held that, if no collision occured there was no risk of collision! You really can't win. (g)

While the words in extremis have gone away in the Colregs, they live on in the annals of maritime law. I recommend Farwell's Rules of the Nautical Road to anyone truly interested in how the rules have been interpreted and the meaning behind them in various situations.
Of course he is. But, when one vessel or the other (hopefully both) determines that risk of collision exists then both are bound by the rules, unless they talk to one another and make passing arrangements. The problem I have had is that small vessels are only aware of the one situation (dealing with the larger vessel) while the larger vessel may have several R of R situations ongoing. Imagine the case where there are two small boats, one on either side of the large vessel, who can't see each other, both with risk of collision. Further to that, put the large ship in a situation where he is setting up for a transit of a narrow channel (maybe a couple miles away) that the two small craft are not even thinking about. The potential is there for the small boats to seriously foul things up if they are not predictable in their actions.
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There is a tide in the affairs of men,
Which, taken at the flood, leads on to fortune;
Omitted, all the voyage of their life
Is bound in shallows and in miseries.
Shakespeare, Julius Caesar IV, iii, 217
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  #25  
Old 03-26-2008
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Plumper,

The problem here in your last example (narrow channels) is that recreational (small) boaters do not know the Rules prohibit them (the recreational small vessels) from impeding the passage of the ships. Under the Colregs, any vessel under 20 meters and sailing vessels are not allowed to impede the passage of a large vessel that can only maneuver in that channel.

That is the fault of the small boat owner; and the fault of the government for not requiring recreational operators to demonstrate their knowledge of the Rules...that is a topic for another time.

Last edited by Yamsailor; 03-26-2008 at 10:56 PM.
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  #26  
Old 03-26-2008
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Boasun will become famous soon enough Boasun will become famous soon enough
Another good book for the rules is "One Minute Guide to the Rules of the Road"
But the best one, is the one put out but the USCG.
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Old 03-26-2008
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sailaway21 is just really nice sailaway21 is just really nice sailaway21 is just really nice sailaway21 is just really nice
Quote:
Originally Posted by Plumper View Post
Of course he is. But, when one vessel or the other (hopefully both) determines that risk of collision exists then both are bound by the rules, unless they talk to one another and make passing arrangements. The problem I have had is that small vessels are only aware of the one situation (dealing with the larger vessel) while the larger vessel may have several R of R situations ongoing. Imagine the case where there are two small boats, one on either side of the large vessel, who can't see each other, both with risk of collision. Further to that, put the large ship in a situation where he is setting up for a transit of a narrow channel (maybe a couple miles away) that the two small craft are not even thinking about. The potential is there for the small boats to seriously foul things up if they are not predictable in their actions.
I understand the point you are getting at I suppose. The illustration you use though is one of "special circumstances" which obviates the need for determining burdened and privileged. In twenty years at sea I never found anything approaching predictability from small boats. (g) One of the first things you learn on a newly wet third mate's license is to not run all over the ocean for small boats. I'll give way, even if not burdened, if I can do so at a good distance and avoid any situation from even developing. But if, through erratic action or not, they're bound and determined to get into a close quarters situation, I'll wave to them from the bridge wing as they come surfing off the bow wave.

It's humorous sitting here, a bit nerve-wracking out there. A couple blasts of "Uniform" usually concentrates the boater's mind admirably.
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  #28  
Old 03-26-2008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yamsailor View Post
Plumper,

The problem here in your last example (narrow channels) is that recreational (small) boaters do not know the Rules prohibit them (the recreational small vessels) from impeding the passage of the ships. Under the Colregs, any vessel under 20 meters and sailing vessels are not allowed to impede the passage of a large vessel that can only maneuver in that channel.

That is the fault of the small boat owner; and the fault of the government for not requiring recreational operators to demonstrate their knowledge of the Rules...that is a topic for another time.
I am aware of that rule. The situation that I have tried to create doesn't have the narrow channel rule in effect. The narrow channel is a mile or two away but the ship is already considering it and the small vessels around him in the setup. My point was that the large vessel likely has more than one other vessel to consider (especially if they are small) and the small vessels are likely just considering the one situation with the large vessel. They must be predictable if nothing else.
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There is a tide in the affairs of men,
Which, taken at the flood, leads on to fortune;
Omitted, all the voyage of their life
Is bound in shallows and in miseries.
Shakespeare, Julius Caesar IV, iii, 217
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  #29  
Old 03-26-2008
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I have a friend who had an unlimited all oceans masters license. He basically said the same thing.
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  #30  
Old 03-26-2008
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Regarding books, I am a Cockcroft and Lameijer fan: A guide to the Collision Avoidance Rules.
Amazon.ca: Guide to the Collision Avoidance Rules: A N Cockcroft,J N F Lameijer: Books
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There is a tide in the affairs of men,
Which, taken at the flood, leads on to fortune;
Omitted, all the voyage of their life
Is bound in shallows and in miseries.
Shakespeare, Julius Caesar IV, iii, 217

Last edited by Plumper; 03-26-2008 at 11:22 PM.
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