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Celestial Navigation? Forget it!

60K views 329 replies 101 participants last post by  Valiente 
#1 ·
Today, Sailnet posted an article by Liza Copeland about the hazards of cruising.

The first third of the article was about navigation, wherein she declared that it was dangerous to "rely solely on electronic navigation." This is about the thousandth time I''ve heard this over the past few years.

In 20 years sextants will be rarer on boats than lubber lines are today. The reason: learning celestial navigation is a waste of time and money.

I have three GPSs on my boat. I didn''t buy three GPSs on purpose, but they''ve accumulated over the years. They never seem to fail, and the space required for the spares and spare batteries is tiny.

The problems with CN are: a it requires considerable skill and continuous practice to use it. It requires an extraordinarily expensive piece of optics to get even the fuzziest of fixes, it depends on a complex set of calculations, and -- here''s the topper -- a sextant is just as vulnerable -- in its own way as a piece of electronics. I''ve dropped my GPSs dozens of times (I guess eventually I''ll kill one); I wonder how many drops a sextant could take and still get a fix withing 1000 miles of position? If you drop it overboard, I guess the number of drops is 1. How many people can keep a spare $1500 sextant on board?

So, sorry to everyone that spent time mastering CN, and have dropped a lot of money on sextants. Your skills are no longer required. They might be needed some day, in some rare situation, and then you''ll be vindicated. But probably not. You''ll carry the damn thing around with you from now on, and keep looking at your GPS when you want to know where you are.

OK, all you grizzled sextant-totin'' old salts out there, let me have it. I can take it.
 
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#2 ·
And are you trying to say that this is not intended as a troll?

-While at some level I agree that for what most sailors do, which is primarily coastal in nature, Celestial Navigation has no place at all, and,
-while I agree that if not practiced can be quickly fogotten,(I for one doubt that I could still do celestial naviagtion without a refresher and some serious practice),
-While I agree that the sextant, reference books and forms are expensive,

I still think that celestial navicagtion is not that hard to learn, can provide a valuable back-up in the case of the kind of total electrical system melt downs that do happen at sea and should be there as a back up.

Jeff
 
#3 ·
Although I do not get to sail as often as I would like (especially during the last 6 years) as I am curently driving an 18-wheeler around the country. I still keep up with my CN skills by periodically using a sextant I picked up in a pawn shop over 25 years ago.

Navigation has gotten far easier over the years but it is not quite idiot-proof yet. GPS''s are great and wonderful tools, but batteries go bad electronics do break and if you are in the middle of the Atlantic or Pacific when things go South it is nice to know that you can figure out where you are.

When I eventually do get to follow my dream of circumnavigation you can bet that I will have my old sextant on board and another plastic one in my ditch-kit because one never knows when Murphy may try and board.

FX
 
#4 ·
Escape,

I agree with you on most points with the whole thing about using sextants and CN. Especially if you are doing Coastal Cruising. But if I was going world cruising I think I would have a Sextant, a book on its use with calculation #''s and maybe a brief course before I go out on that long cruise. But you are right, the odds of needing it are slim. BUT you never know and what if something happens to all your GPS''s or Batteries or The Satelites...(I know.,...unlikely). But it would be nice to have a fall back, especially if your boat took a roll and flooded everything in the boat and the GPS''s failed. Don''t think this can never happen, because on a nasty day navigating home my Garmin 48 "bit the dust" (Of course it was a nasty, foggy and rainy day....those are the days when you really need it) So I had to "Dead Reckon" the rest of the way home, which wasn''t too much of a problem.

But that is the whole point. My fear is that too many boaters are going out there with no knowledge at all of navigation. Some don''t even have charts, all the have is chartplotters and use the thing like a AAA roadmap. Now I am not putting down electronics or chartplotters...I LOVE THEM. I have a full color Raytheon RL70CRC and it greatly enhances my sailing pleasure and lessens the stress. But you know what. If I lost all my electronics I could home fine with just my charts and the compass, even in nasty weather. Yeah, it would be a pain, especially relative to what I do now, but I could do it.

But how many people can do that. Even though electronics are wonderful they are not infallible and maybe *that* is why Liza Copeland wrote that it was dangerous to "rely solely on electronic navigation." A skipper should be able to verify what the electronics "say" to what the eyes are telling you, he should constantly be able have that "warm & fuzzy" feeling that what he see''s electronically matches what he actually see''s and if they don''t match up he should figure out why.

True story. July 3rd, 2000 sailing from Long Island Sound to NY Harbor to see the OP Sails Tall Ships Parade. I had my GPS on and it was sometimes giving me readings of 1/2 mile off. It was easy to see because I was 40 yards off of the "Stepping Stones Light" but that is NOT what the GPS said. It was easy to see that my GPS was giving readings outside of the "normal". I had come to learn that because of all the Navy Ships that will be in the Harbour and I think the President the next day, that the government was inducing errors into the GPS. It wasn''t a problem for me, because I was able to "see" where I was going. But what about those boaters that are relying exclusively on electronics to get them where they are going. There is a good chance once in a while that its going to be off and that will put them in a lot of trouble....BTW even with WAAS, the government can induce errors.

So remember sextants are not always needed for boaters but some OTHER NON_ELECTRONIC means of navigating and the skills required are necessary. (Coastal Navigation, Dead Reckoning in cases of limited visibilty, etc?)
 
#5 ·
Even though I have a very nice GPS, I still dust off the ole sextant once a month. I do it mostly for mental exersice, but it''s nice to know that in a pinch I could still find my way around.

BTW, the military still controls the signals sent by all navigational satilites. In an emergency situation, they can render all non-military GPS systems completely useless.

Murphy may not need to get on board, he can be thrust upon you. As far as I know, the military has not yet figured out how to control the Sun, Moon, and Stars. ;^)

~ Happy sails to you ~
 
#6 ·
I am 38 years old. You calling me old? LOL

You don''t have to plop down a lot of money on a dusty sextant to have one. I have one, land-locked tho I am at the moment, that was a second to a friend of mine. And yes, I will have a sextant onboard any time I am at sea. I do not consider the time spent "wasted", especially since I learned the ''whole bunch of crap'' before I found out there are calculators that will take your readings and do the calculations for you. The calculators are nice to have, but - what if there are no batteries, no electricity? What happens if, God forbid, you are at sea and the powers that be shut down the satellites, or there is an electromagnetic pulse to render the electricity useless? You gonna blow around trying to dead reckon 3,000 miles out?

Never ridicule anyone for their knowledge just because you can''t do the same. Instead, try to learn the same and not brag about what you can pay for. If batteries are worthless, what good is your money?

And, last of all, if everyone drops everything overboard and all the equipment sinks, who will be better able to figure where they are - someone who has been looking at a screen (which is no longer there at all), or someone who has been looking to the skies - which remain unchanged?

HM?
 
#7 ·
Total electrical failures possible? Even with 9+ levels of electrical redundancy aboard modern day aircraft and their magical glass cockpits you still find a needle, ball and airspeed. Wonder if the engineers were thinking that they''d just throw them in for nostalgia''s sake or they thought that maybe there was a possibility that electricity really could fail - totally. If you''re gonna take your frail human body into areas where survival depends upon your skill at using what''s at hand I think it would be prudent to back yourself up by having as many things ''at hand'' as you feel you have the skill to use. If not a sextant there are other "back-ups" as mentioned in previous posts that will help keep you a self-sufficient and safe seaman.

Regards,
Snap
 
#8 ·
I agree with the premise that sole reliance on electronic navigation equipment is a dangerous (and foolish) approach to seamanship.

Jeff & Tsenator are right on.

The gov''t isn''t about to announce in advance when it''s going to degrade the GPS signal.

For coastal cruising, familiarity and basic competency with chart reading and plotting, compasses, tidal analyis and dead reckoning are some of the hallmarks of sound seamanship. Being comfortable without a GPS on board should be the goal.

CN fits into the picture for offshore passagemaking. I sure would want someone on board who is competent at CN.
 
#9 ·
On a very recent Saturday morning (Memorial Day weekend I think), both of my onboard GPS units refused fix because they had 0% signal strength for ALL satellites.

Since I''ve never seen this happen before, I can only assume I was either right underneath a huge cloud sucking the life out of the sateliite transmissions, or the military were making some "adjustments" to their signal.

Graham
 
#302 ·
A few years ago I spoke with guy from a company exhibiting celestial navigation supplies at a trade show. I asked him how GPS had affected his sales. He told me they were way UP, not down! He said that he beleived the reason was that previously only people that NEEDED celestial navigation took the time to learn it. It was also too difficult to learn while actually sailing because you never REALLY knew where you were, and always had the uncertainty of how good your calculations are. However, when your primary means of navigation is GPS, and you are very sure of where you are, then the sextant becomes fun to use. You have an absolute target to measure against, so you are immediately sure of whether you did it right, and can check you calculations right then and there to figure out what you did wrong. You can try different techniques for taking a sight, and almost instantly determine whether it improves your accuracy. So learning is much easier too. So it is likely you will be MUCH better able to actually use the sextant if needed. Interesting thoughts!
 
#11 ·
I am not sure but I think that EscapeArtist was the fellow who was an "Escape" (which is a rotomolded daysailor) enthusiastic. I am not sure of this but there was a fellow on this BB in the early days who spent a lot of time talking about the merits of these boats and did some kind of long distance passage in one to demonstrate its sailing ability. This may not be that guy but he had a nom ''d net that was something like EscapeArtist.

As you note he hasn''t been around much lately.
Jeff
 
#12 ·
Do commercial vessels (ocean going tugs, bulk carriers, container ships, cruise ships, research vessels, tankers, etc, etc.) carry sextants?

How likely are the doomsday scenarios which would disable the satellite network (please, no paranoid conspiracy theories)?

Are there any accounts of sailboats meeting their end soley because of a GPS failure?

Are sailors the only ones still using sextants, as part of some "old school" perception?

Has the sextant been relegated to a hobby?

I''m confused......
 
#13 ·
To the best of my recollection, ALL U.S. Navy ships must have qualified navigators and they must be well versed in the use of sextants, among other navigational aides. The U.S. Merchant Marine vessels are likewise required the Capt. and the first officer to be certified navigators.

The degredation of non-military GPS signals is not as uncommon as you might think, especially since 9/11. Every time a rocket launch (friendly or otherwise) is detected, a decision about the GPS signals is made. Also, there are places on the Globe that do not get good satelite coverage, at least not 24/7.

Sole reliance on electronic aides is just too huge a risk to take with Murphy considering the potential consequences. Besides, using a sextant is not that hard. All it takes (like sailing) is practice. ;^)

~ Happy sails to you ~
 
#14 ·
To say that CN is expensive and difficult to learn is ridiculous! I bought a decent plastic sextant and learned it while doing a delivery from the V.I. to Florida years ago.

Granted, my triangulated fix was a lot bigger than the one created by the guy teaching me, I was close enough to the actual position to have spotted an island if that was what I was looking for.

If you can follow “cookbook method” directions, can add and subtract numbers, you can do CN.

Is it a waste of time and money?? I guess if you go through life never having had to actually need it, and rely on the electronics and satellites to tell you where you are, yea, it could be useless. Health insurance is worthless if you never need it. Same with fire, flood and earthquake, and even car insurance, I guess.

Mary Blewitt wrote a wonderful little ‘how to’ book on CN. I highly recommend it.
 
#15 ·
I may be misremembering, but either last year, or the year before, there was a mandate issued that allowed the U.S. Navy to discontinue teaching of CN. A few weeks after that, readings of satellites were disrupted for some reason or another, thus prompting the questioning of the idea. Think I read about it in both the local newspaper and in Time, or something.

So, it isn''t just a total electronic blackout that may precipitate the need for those who have experience in CN.

Fair Winds,
Mary
 
#16 ·
This whole discussion about CN seems to suggest that there are some who think at least one of the following is the case.
1) the equipment is delicate and expensive,
2) the math is too difficult,
3) the tables are dificult to follow, or
3) it takes too much time to do CN.

Considering how some folks are becoming more insistent on getting "instant gratification", is it any wonder that CN is being viewed by some as an archaic way of determining one''s location? From a navigator''s point of view, what could be better than turning on handheld GPS, and within a matter of seconds, knowing where you are, within two meters?

I''m by no means an ole'' salt, but even I know that electronic equipment and saltwater don''t mix. There are just too many things that can go wrong, even with multiple GPS units and/or a box-full of fresh batteries.

Getting back to the original set of reasons why not to use CN, I was able to get a rather good (Russian Navy unit) sextant for far less than a handheld GPS. The sextant is rather sturdy, but of course, reasonable care should be used with all optical equipment. I know how to add, subtract, multiply and devide, so I have all the math skills needed to do CN. I have all the books needed, and the only one that must be updated is the Almanac. Even with the cost of the books, the amount of money spent to be able to do CN is still less than the cost of a decent handheld GPS, not including any software add-ons. With regard to the time it takes to do CN, a noon fix may take 10 minutes, 30 minutes tops. When you''re out in the middle of the ocean, what other pressing activities are there that keep you from taking 30 minutes to get a CN fix?

~ Happy sails to you ~
 
#19 ·
My wife and I are only coastal cruiser types and I feel CN is necessary for any sea voyage. One would be remiss without an experienced CN certified crewmember. That is an issue of safety, of which there can be no shortage.
Coastal cruisers should be able to plot their location from landmarks, give an approximate fix on their location, just using a compass and chart. For someone in this catagory CN can be a hobby but not necesaarily a need to know.
It accually depends on the person. Some learn for personal or professional reasons. Some don''t beacause they''ll never use it and some just don''t care.
 
#20 ·
Windship,

I have delivered from the States to the BVI (one of many, many trips) as a sister ship to one that was captained by a man who had been on the water since before he could walk, grew up on the Thames. He carried only a sextant. During a spat of "bad" weather - it was overcast for a few days - we were still in VHF communication with him. His crew had no confidence, and became insolent and abusive, not to mention totally whiny (these were grown men, with boats of their own, mind you). When we hailed him, he spoke of wanting to be off the ''ship of fools'', and quickly. I even heard a few times the crew being abusive to him in the background. We had a sextant, but we also had a handheld GPS that I doubt many would recognize - an old Magellan that weighed 7 pounds and was big as a bag of sugar. Anyway, 10 days out we were no longer able to contact them. Since we were in bad weather, we gave a description to passing ships, just in case. On arrival, we went immediately to the base and asked them for information, etc.. The guy behind the desk pointed over our shoulders and said, "He''s right there." The SOB had arrived 2 days before us, and he had listed us in the lookout traffic. His crew was gone, having flown home, and I''m glad I never got to confront them and call them the cowards they had shown themselves to be (because I would surely have been arrested). A few years later one guy had the nerve to ask to go on another trip as crew, and was told that under no uncertain terms would he ever sail with the company again.

Just a story, but maybe one that applies.

MaryBeth
 
#22 ·
Good for you, Walt.

But perhaps you may be overlooking the fact that many (ok, some) who visit the board seem to be those fairly new to sailing that want to have the best advice possible as to what to not only buy (money, money) but to learn in order to enhance their sailing experiences. Everyone has a different dream, a different vision of where they want their sailing experiences to take them. Some are happy to beat the guy at the next dock in the weekly races, others want to cruise the seas, yet others are happy for the lovely daysails on their lake or just outside their inlet. Yes, good sailors are well prepared for all instances, but while some take to sailing like a duck to water, others need to work at it a bit in order to become good sailors. While this has seemed to have turned into a drawn out discussion of the pros and cons of relying solely on electronics, perhaps those you would have considered fools have taken some of the discussion into account, and will learn more because of it. If you yourself don''t need the information, or have anything to add to the discussion, don''t click on the link.

And I do agree with you, don''t sail with fools.

''Nuff Said,
MaryBeth
 
#23 ·
I remember reading in a most fastenating book, the biography of Tanya Aeibi and the story of her adventures sailing alone around the world. In it she used a sextant and could never get it to come out correct. After a great length of time trying to learn what she was doing wrong, Tanya finaly realized the plastic sextant was wharped. So much for accuracy.
Please forgive the spelling of Tanya''s name.
She is a contributing writer for sailnet.
I also recommend reading her book.
 
#24 ·
My friend has a plastic sextant while I have an aluminum one made in Russia. We once did a side by side comparison, and the saying, ''you get what you pay for" was proven true once again. The funny thing is, I didn''t pay that much more for the Russian sextant (made in 1972, and which I found on ebay) than he paid for a new top-of-the-line plastic unit. Also, the Russian one came with a scope that can be set to 4X or 8X magnification. Now if only I knew how to read cerilic?! ;^)

~ Happy sails to you ~ _/) ~
 
#25 ·
While I am new to sailing, here are my thouhgts: I fly (airplanes) and I think this is sort of on the same line......when working towards your private pilots license, the instructor teaches you and makes you use chart navagation. This means that the aeronautical chart''s on your lap, a plotter, and a flight computer (non-electronic), a pencil, and a timer. That is it. Of course he sits in the right seat with his GPS and knows exactly where we are, but that is not the point. Somethings you should just be able to do on your own, without relying on technology. Now that said, I love the uses of GPS and all technology for that matter and will continue to use them in all of my endevors. Comparing with another hobby of mine (motorcycles), they say to "dress for the fall, not for the ride." Plan for the worst (while thinking positively :), and always have a backup for your backup. Just my thoughts
 
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