Who would be at fault - SailNet Community

   Search Sailnet:

 forums  store  


Quick Menu
Forums           
Articles          
Galleries        
Boat Reviews  
Classifieds     
Search SailNet 
Boat Search (new)

Shop the
SailNet Store
Anchor Locker
Boatbuilding & Repair
Charts
Clothing
Electrical
Electronics
Engine
Hatches and Portlights
Interior And Galley
Maintenance
Marine Electronics
Navigation
Other Items
Plumbing and Pumps
Rigging
Safety
Sailing Hardware
Trailer & Watersports
Clearance Items

Advertise Here






Go Back   SailNet Community > Skills and Seamanship > Seamanship & Navigation
 Not a Member? 

Seamanship & Navigation Forum devoted to seamanship and navigation topics, including paper and electronic charting tools.


Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
  #1  
Old 07-15-2008
theartfuldodger's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 278
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Rep Power: 8
theartfuldodger is on a distinguished road
Send a message via Skype™ to theartfuldodger
Who would be at fault

Sunday 13th of July a Catamaran on the Grand Banks was hit by about a 50 plus fishing boat and all 8 on the catamaran were put into the water. The fishing boat rescued all in the water, where by later the Canadian Coast Guard returned all sailors to St John's Newfoundland. It was reported the person at the helm on the fishing boat put the boat on auto pilot and went to get a cup of tea, all the while in thick fog, haven't heard yet what was going on the Catamaran at that time yet. My thought is where does one lay blame if blame can be layed, should both boats not have been responsible of their safety, not to mention sounding the fog horn on a regular bases.
__________________
Brake Free
Lake Ontario
42 CC Passage
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #2  
Old 07-15-2008
camaraderie's Avatar
moderate?
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: East Coast
Posts: 13,878
Thanks: 0
Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts
Rep Power: 15
camaraderie is a jewel in the rough camaraderie is a jewel in the rough camaraderie is a jewel in the rough
While both share some portion of the blame, I believe the catamaran has the legal duty to avoid a vessel actively fishing.
__________________
No longer posting. Reach me by PM!
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #3  
Old 07-15-2008
harryhoratio's Avatar
Ventilation Guy
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Chico, CA
Posts: 36
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Rep Power: 0
harryhoratio is on a distinguished road
My take on the rules especially in restricted visibility is that all vessels must be extra cautious and take all steps to avoid collision - period. Both are at fault however since the fishing boat was by admission not keeping a lookout it bears it's share of the responsibility which does not relieve the catamaran from taking whatever action needed to avoid collision. The essence of the rules are - don't collide no matter who has rights of way or any other consideration and if you do then you most likely will bear some responsibility.
__________________
Craig Alger
Blog: Sailboatsailor.wordpress.com
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #4  
Old 07-15-2008
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: New Orleans
Posts: 1,860
Thanks: 6
Thanked 23 Times in 21 Posts
Rep Power: 10
nolatom will become famous soon enough
"Insufficient info" really to try to assign blame, which is your inquiry here. But look at the rules. In thick fog, all bets are off, except for the rules which apply in fog.

Forget about almost all of the "vessels in sight of one another" rules (meaning rules 11 thru 17, which tell you who is the "stand-on" or "give-way" vessel, and what each should do).

Legally, you're now in the realm of "Vessels in Restricted Visibility". That's Rule 19. Both vessels shall keep a safe speed considering the visibility (which could mean bare steerage or even zero speed in zero vis), watch that radar or AIS, sound and listen for foghorns, determine if there is a close situation coming up, and navigate with caution, etc (the rule sets it all out).

So no one is privileged nor burdened in the fog. Sail, fishing, anyone, have the same obligations--to be cautious, determine if a close-quarters situation may arise, and slow or stop until you both figure it out and get past it (radar, radio, and now AIS, and even whistles can help in sorting things out).

I'm not sure mariners in general realize this, though Rule 19 has been around since the stone age. They still think, "sail over power", or "trawling over sail", etc. Those rules no longer apply in fog.

Leaving wheelhouse on autopilot doesn't sound like the "navigate with extreme caution" which rule 19 requires when there's a vessel ahead of you in the fog. But what was the cat doing? Did either of both have radar? Anyone watching it? Signals being sounded by both? Any radio contact, or attempt?

My initial reaction is that the "cup of tea" mate may have a problem under rule 19, as well as the "lookout rule" ( Rule 5). But these questions are very fact-intensive, and can't be answered without more info. But don't rely on the "in sight" (meaning visual, not radar) rules to determine the obligations of vessels who can't see each other in the fog until they near-miss or hit each other.

Re-reading Rule 19 now and then is a good idea.

Last edited by nolatom; 07-15-2008 at 12:27 PM.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #5  
Old 07-15-2008
Plumper's Avatar
Sailor
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Vancouver Island
Posts: 845
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Rep Power: 7
Plumper is on a distinguished road
Well put nolatom. I agree.
__________________
There is a tide in the affairs of men,
Which, taken at the flood, leads on to fortune;
Omitted, all the voyage of their life
Is bound in shallows and in miseries.
Shakespeare, Julius Caesar IV, iii, 217
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #6  
Old 07-15-2008
sailingdog's Avatar
Telstar 28
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: New England
Posts: 43,291
Thanks: 0
Thanked 9 Times in 9 Posts
Rep Power: 13
sailingdog is just really nice sailingdog is just really nice sailingdog is just really nice sailingdog is just really nice sailingdog is just really nice
Cam—

If this had taken place in clear conditions, whether the boat a fishing trawler or a fishing day charter boat with fishing rods off of it would make a big difference. A trawler with equipment out would have right of way over a sailboat, but a day charter boat with fishing rods out would not.

In either case, both boats should have been keeping a watch, and both boats had a responsibility to take action to avoid a collision. I think that putting a boat on autopilot in heavy fog and then going up to get a cup of tea is a bit irresponsible.
__________________
Sailingdog

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Telstar 28
New England

You know what the first rule of sailing is? ...Love. You can learn all the math in the 'verse, but you take
a boat to the sea you don't love, she'll shake you off just as sure as the turning of the worlds. Love keeps
her going when she oughta fall down, tells you she's hurting 'fore she keens. Makes her a home.

—Cpt. Mal Reynolds, Serenity (edited)

If you're new to the Sailnet Forums... please read this
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
.

Still—DON'T READ THAT POST AGAIN.

Last edited by sailingdog; 07-15-2008 at 12:40 PM.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #7  
Old 07-15-2008
Owner, Green Bay Packers
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: SW Michigan
Posts: 10,318
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Rep Power: 11
sailaway21 is just really nice sailaway21 is just really nice sailaway21 is just really nice sailaway21 is just really nice
Nolatom makes a good and correct point often not realised by mariners. The requirements of Rule 19 supercede all others, by definition.
__________________
“Scientists are people who build the Brooklyn Bridge and then buy it.”
Wm. F. Buckley, Jr.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #8  
Old 07-15-2008
Plumper's Avatar
Sailor
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Vancouver Island
Posts: 845
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Rep Power: 7
Plumper is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by sailingdog View Post
Cam—

If this had taken place in clear conditions, whether the boat a fishing trawler or a fishing day charter boat with fishing rods off of it would make a big difference. A trawler with equipment out would have right of way over a sailboat, but a day charter boat with fishing rods out would not.

In either case, both boats should have been keeping a watch, and both boats had a responsibility to take action to avoid a collision. I think that putting a boat on autopilot in heavy fog and then going up to get a cup of tea is a bit irresponsible.
Just a bit?
__________________
There is a tide in the affairs of men,
Which, taken at the flood, leads on to fortune;
Omitted, all the voyage of their life
Is bound in shallows and in miseries.
Shakespeare, Julius Caesar IV, iii, 217
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #9  
Old 07-15-2008
camaraderie's Avatar
moderate?
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: East Coast
Posts: 13,878
Thanks: 0
Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts
Rep Power: 15
camaraderie is a jewel in the rough camaraderie is a jewel in the rough camaraderie is a jewel in the rough
Nolatom...thanks for the detailed explanation...I stand corrected!
__________________
No longer posting. Reach me by PM!
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #10  
Old 07-15-2008
NOLAsailing's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Mandeville, LA
Posts: 504
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Rep Power: 8
NOLAsailing is on a distinguished road
Great answer Tom.
__________________
-Jason

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

 
Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may post attachments
You may edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Basic Electrical Diagram tsweeney Gear & Maintenance 20 02-15-2008 06:50 PM
Major Problems With Marina hamiam General Discussion (sailing related) 33 11-28-2007 04:33 PM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 11:17 AM.

Add to My Yahoo!         
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
SEO by vBSEO 3.6.1
(c) Marine.com LLC 2000-2012

The SailNet.com store is owned and operated by a company independent of the SailNet.com forum. You are now leaving the SailNet forum. Click OK to continue or Cancel to return to the SailNet forum.