Heavy Weather Sailing - Page 12 - SailNet Community

   Search Sailnet:

 forums  store  


Quick Menu
Forums           
Articles          
Galleries        
Boat Reviews  
Classifieds     
Search SailNet 
Boat Search (new)

Shop the
SailNet Store
Anchor Locker
Boatbuilding & Repair
Charts
Clothing
Electrical
Electronics
Engine
Hatches and Portlights
Interior And Galley
Maintenance
Marine Electronics
Navigation
Other Items
Plumbing and Pumps
Rigging
Safety
Sailing Hardware
Trailer & Watersports
Clearance Items

Advertise Here






Go Back   SailNet Community > Skills and Seamanship > Seamanship & Navigation
 Not a Member? 

Seamanship & Navigation Forum devoted to seamanship and navigation topics, including paper and electronic charting tools.


Like Tree9Likes
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
  #111  
Old 12-10-2008
CharlieCobra's Avatar
On the hard
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Bellingham, WA.
Posts: 3,503
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Rep Power: 10
CharlieCobra has a spectacular aura about CharlieCobra has a spectacular aura about
With Oh Joy, running offwind in a Gale, the tiller pressure get enormous at times. On our delivery sail, it took both of my crew to handle it so I could get a break. I had to use my legs and a rower's technique to stay on the helm and control her for hours without wearing out. One thing I noticed early, if ya get into a rhythm, it's easier. I'm not sure that there's a tillerpilot out there that could handle the helm when it's up like that. A windvane? Probably but I won't find that out until a later date.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #112  
Old 12-10-2008
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 235
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Rep Power: 6
goboatingnow is on a distinguished road
Quote:
The main function of a drogue is not in the speed component, but in the directional aspect, I think. If you think of it as a sort of "super long rudder assist", you can keep your stern at the right angle to the wave trains to both avoid getting pooped and to avoid having gravity itself take you down a wave front like a freight train.
Spot on , couldnt agree more, its not about slowing her down and most books mention this point incorrectly , its to aid teh rudder and keeping her a$s pointing at the dirty stuff.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #113  
Old 12-10-2008
smackdaddy's Avatar
Last Man Standing
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 12,921
Thanks: 79
Thanked 72 Times in 66 Posts
Rep Power: 8
smackdaddy is a jewel in the rough smackdaddy is a jewel in the rough smackdaddy is a jewel in the rough
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnshasteen View Post
In a full gale or higher, you'll find that much of what you read and all of what you think, goes out the window and swing keel or not, the boat must be strong and seaworthy.
With that said, I agree with GOBOATINGNOW on active storm management. Paloma has endured two Force 10 storms (winds gusting above 60 and 30+ foot seas. We ran before both storms (one for 36 hours, the other for 48 hours), making better than hull speed (according to the GPS). Heaving to would have been disasterous - we would have broached, drogues would have been a problem by slowing down the boat, in the sometimes confused seas, when we most needed the crisp steering response.
Okay, John, you know me. I'm always trolling for good BFS. And the above sounds like some damn fine BFS. Go over to the thread and throw down will ya?

You know, this whole thing would be a lot easier if there was just one way to do it! Can't we all just get along?

So - active management, probably with a drogue (series is best) especially with a modern fin keel. I'm also like the the idea of the wind vane rudder. Seems like a good solution for shorter-handed crews?
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #114  
Old 12-11-2008
Valiente's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Toronto
Posts: 5,491
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Rep Power: 10
Valiente has a spectacular aura about Valiente has a spectacular aura about
It's the physics of the thing...

Quote:
Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post

You know, this whole thing would be a lot easier if there was just one way to do it! Can't we all just get along?
There would be one way to do it if there was only one type of boat, one length, one wind speed, one sea state and one type of gear aboard.

What I do in my light fin keeler and what I do in my big-arsed steel full keeler are not only different, but have to be different, because the boats ride the waves with very different motions. So every scrap of good advice has to be prefaced with "this worked for me on this boat in these conditions" and "your experience may vary".

That said, there are common sense rules and certain attention paid to the physics of the operation that have been stated here: Most modern boats (light fin keelers perhaps with near plumb bows and high cabin tops) should run off and be helmed actively. Other boats of different design can have different options...if the crew know how to sail the boat and how to sail to the conditions. Inertia dictates a lot of these decisions, because as anyone who has been even in a fair-weather broach or a full-hoist knockdown can attest...it is immediately obvious when you are sailing the boat, and when you are no longer sailing, but merely one of many variables in a very large fluid dynamics experiment.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #115  
Old 12-11-2008
jrd22's Avatar
Courtney the Dancer
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: San Juan Islands., WA, USA
Posts: 3,804
Thanks: 3
Thanked 14 Times in 14 Posts
Rep Power: 14
jrd22 will become famous soon enough
Valiente said "it is immediately obvious when you are sailing the boat, and when you are no longer sailing, but merely one of many variables in a very large fluid dynamics experiment."

LOL, very well said, almost as good as a picture and very true.

John
__________________
John
SV Laurie Anne

1988 Brewer 40 Pilothouse

Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #116  
Old 12-13-2008
johnshasteen's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 649
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Rep Power: 12
johnshasteen is on a distinguished road
[quote=smackdaddy;414885]Okay, John, you know me. I'm always trolling for good BFS. And the above sounds like some damn fine BFS. Go over to the thread and throw down will ya?quote]


Smackdaddy, of course I know you. But, where's the thread?
__________________
s/v Paloma, Bristol 29.9, #141
Slipped in Bahia Marina, easy access to Corpus Christi Bay and the Gulf of Mexico.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #117  
Old 12-15-2008
smackdaddy's Avatar
Last Man Standing
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 12,921
Thanks: 79
Thanked 72 Times in 66 Posts
Rep Power: 8
smackdaddy is a jewel in the rough smackdaddy is a jewel in the rough smackdaddy is a jewel in the rough
Hey John,

HERE YA GO....BFS.

Throw down, dude.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #118  
Old 01-16-2009
smackdaddy's Avatar
Last Man Standing
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 12,921
Thanks: 79
Thanked 72 Times in 66 Posts
Rep Power: 8
smackdaddy is a jewel in the rough smackdaddy is a jewel in the rough smackdaddy is a jewel in the rough
Okay - still reading and researching and I gotta ask again...

Does ANYONE around here advocate the drogue-off-the-bow technique for riding out big seas and wind? Most of those herein have been on the side of the running with warps/drogues/etc. off the stern - or actively running when possible.

But then I keep seeing issues of rudder breakage, pooping, broach, etc. with these techniques.

Keeping the bow into the waves seems intuitively right - and is advocated in several of the books I've come across. But, apart from the Pardeys, I'm not finding any other "real world" back up for this.

Sorry to re-hash, but it sure can get confusing. And I really don't want to screw up in my first blow!
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #119  
Old 01-16-2009
Valiente's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Toronto
Posts: 5,491
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Rep Power: 10
Valiente has a spectacular aura about Valiente has a spectacular aura about
Don't wait for your first blow, then.

There is NOTHING to stop you practising heaving-to, sea anchor, warps, drogue, etc. in first 15 knot conditions, and then 20 knots conditions, and so on.

In fact, I endorse it.

For one thing, you will learn how to get a drogue back aboard without blowing out a back disc...and for another, you will get a sense of scale about how these methods and gear work when it's 40-50 knots and you really want to slow down or fore-reach at a knot so you can catch some sleep.

And if anything breaks at 20 knots...it's not a life-ender, and you have time to repair it for the ocean conditions you hope you'll never see.

Every May after launch, my wife, son and I go out and chuck a ring overboard and say "MAN OVERBOARD". Then we run time trials for quick-stops, coming about, and retrieval. It is exceptionally instructive.
__________________
Can't sleep? Read my countdown to voyaging blog @
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #120  
Old 01-17-2009
Ilenart's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: West Australia
Posts: 507
Thanks: 0
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
Rep Power: 7
Ilenart is on a distinguished road
Smackdaddy,

I don't think there is one right answer, it depends on a range of factors, including the type of boat, weather conditions, level of experience, equipment on board, etc.

I believe a lot of lighter boats have trouble heaving too or keeping their bows pointed into the wind in really heavy conditions. Therefore these boats would do better running, which I think includes the majority of modern production boats, and hence explains why running is so popular. If you look at the Pardey's boat it is a heavy long keel boat which would be great for heaving too, but is in the minority if you look at the average modern fin keeled cruisers.

Also with a para sail off the bow you should have some heavy duty fittings on the bow as it places enormous forces on the front of the boat. There have also been plenty of recorded cases where conditions got so rough that people were not prepared to go onto the bows to rig up a para anchor.

However, there are lots of recorded cases of people successfully using para anchors off the bows, hence its a legitamite technique.

I think Val's right in saying you need to figure out what's the best technique for yourself. For my boat heaving too appears to be the best technique for extreme conditions. With my boats' heavy construction (D/L of 388) , long keel, mizzen mast and pilot house a fair way back, my boat easily heaves too without having to worry about a para anchor or drogue.

Ilenart
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

 
Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may post attachments
You may edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Heavy weather sailing sailorfrank Learning to Sail 26 09-10-2013 06:32 PM
The Folklore of Weather John Rousmaniere Seamanship Articles 0 05-17-2004 08:00 PM
The Balance of Hull and Sails Steve Colgate Buying a Boat Articles 0 05-25-2000 08:00 PM
The Weather Fax Jim Sexton Seamanship Articles 0 10-20-1999 08:00 PM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 11:12 PM.

Add to My Yahoo!         
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
SEO by vBSEO 3.6.1
(c) Marine.com LLC 2000-2012