Heavy Weather Sailing - Page 44 - SailNet Community

   Search Sailnet:

 forums  store  


Quick Menu
Forums           
Articles          
Galleries        
Boat Reviews  
Classifieds     
Search SailNet 
Boat Search (new)

Shop the
SailNet Store
Anchor Locker
Boatbuilding & Repair
Charts
Clothing
Electrical
Electronics
Engine
Hatches and Portlights
Interior And Galley
Maintenance
Marine Electronics
Navigation
Other Items
Plumbing and Pumps
Rigging
Safety
Sailing Hardware
Trailer & Watersports
Clearance Items

Advertise Here






Go Back   SailNet Community > Skills and Seamanship > Seamanship & Navigation
 Not a Member? 

Seamanship & Navigation Forum devoted to seamanship and navigation topics, including paper and electronic charting tools.


Like Tree23Likes
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
  #431  
Old 02-16-2011
smackdaddy's Avatar
Last Man Standing
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 13,156
Thanks: 85
Thanked 81 Times in 75 Posts
Rep Power: 9
smackdaddy is a jewel in the rough smackdaddy is a jewel in the rough smackdaddy is a jewel in the rough
I'm very fortunate to have been in touch with Jeanne Socrates on Nereida (the boat that was knocked down off Cape Horn - referenced above). I asked her about the use of the JSD before and after the knockdown - as she had, very understandably, not been able to provide a lot of detail while in the middle of it all. She very kindly responded with a great telling of the story.

To me, getting it straight from someone like Jeanne who is actually using this thing in the Southern Ocean, in the middle of a gale, is just about the best feedback any of us could possibly ask for. Raise your glasses to this incredible woman!

Here Jeanne's response to my email:

Quote:
Re series drogue:" Was the drogue deployed prior to/during your knockdown? If I recall, you mentioned that you were having trouble keeping Nereida quartered to the seas - that she was drifting to a beam-on position. I (along with many other interested sailors on these forums) are curious about how you found the effectiveness of the JSD and what you'd recommend based on that experience."

I've seen a lot of the discussion you refer to (....a lot of other kind people out there!!).... To put the story right:

I had the drogue totally 'ready to go' - even to the extent of having taken out the chain (used as the weight on end of the line) from its pocket in a specially-made bag tied to the stern steelwork - because when I tested it in readiness for the expected bad weather, it had been rather difficult to get out. So I'd draped it over the bag so that should conditions deteriorate a lot, I could deploy it in an instant. (With the boat upright, even well-heeled, I made sure the chain stayed put without a problem)

With winds of 35 kt, gusting 40kt, and seas of 5-6m (always difficult to estimate .... they were a good size but not unduly threatening, with occasional short sections breaking just a little), I was hove to and feeling OK in the conditions. Although not totally happy with being almost beam on to the seas, wind & sea conditions seemed fairly stable and we seemed to be coping OK, so I saw no reason to deploy the JSD just then. (Several people have commented to me here in Ushuaia that there seem to have been a lot of 'rogue waves' around this season, near Antarctica.)

During the knockdown, the JSD 'self-deployed' - it was truly 'ready-to-go' - so it went! ....although I didn't realize it had gone for a time, being busy with other concerns... The mainsl has a very deep third reef, probably equivalent to the trysail, and the staysail was furled to the equivalent of a storm jib size. We were still hove-to and beam on to the seas - but now I was very worried that we might get knocked down again & so tried to change our heading by increasing the stays'l and even unfurling some genoa in an attempt to head us more downwind - but to no avail. At some point, I realized we had deployed the JSD. So now I expected it to keep us stern to the waves but we still had sail up .... I tried to furl the staysail in completely, the line broke loose, the sail unravelled totally and flapped violently, making the whole boat shake with it - I thought the rig was in danger.... It broke the carbon pole. I lowered the staysail to the deck & tied it down, expecting the mains'l to head us up and put us at more of an angle to the waves - it didn't. Of course, with the JSD deployed, the two were 'fighting' each other, so we ended up still nearly beam on to the waves. I lowered the mains'l and managed to tie the headboard down - but two cars had come out of the track, so there was still a lot of windage in the sail, which was billowing rather - so that still kept us beam on.... In the still-big seas, I felt highly vulnerable when I tried to reach up to tie the sail down around the boom, so I had to give up on that.

Eventually, having tried to set the wheel in different positions (having fixed the boom end out of the way so it no longer interfered with the wheel movement) and not found that of help, it occurred to me that I could use the autopilot. (The Hydrovane was behaving oddly - later I found the rudder was at right angles to where it should have been so that couldn't have been helping my hand-steering efforts...). I set the AP to steer us more downwind (TG I'd finally got that working reliably on my way South from Canada!) and put the waves on the quarter - at last! We were making 1.5-2 knots in over 30kn of wind. That is probably when I was able to snatch 2-3 hours of sleep, sitting at the chart table, surrounded by wet chaos. I heard the fishing boat come very close at first light (very early at that latitude) - I looked out and got the impression it was circling around to inspect the boat, ready for the proposed tow.... I remember being surprised at how small it seemed. Soon after, I saw we were making 4-5 knots in a SE direction - away from land .. and safety... and towards the continental shelf ... but the wind had been forecast to ease soon after dawn, with the seas expected to die down some hours later. (My suspicions were confirmed much later when I brought in the drogue and found just 6 of the 124 cones and minimal line .... the fishermen had helpfully cut the drogue away by driving over it when it got light enough to see...despite my repeated VHF warnings to them in Spanish about my sea anchor...)

"Obviously, you have enough faith in it to be ordering another. But we are trying to learn as much as we can from those who've used it in "the stink" as it were. So any feedback would be much appreciated."

Yes - my new one was brought to me here in Ushuaia, ready for my (eventual!) onward passage. (I'm hoping to buy the 7kg of chain for the end-weight tomorrow, in fact.) I know from Tony Gooch that he has used it 7-8 times to excellent effect (he offsets the bridle so it's off the quarter more, not quite dead upwind) and he swears by it. He uses it whenever he "wants to stop the world" as he puts it! 3-4 of those times were on his solo RTW trip... He told me that before he deploys it he could well be running under a headsail (probably staysail) alone. I even spoke to him that night (by satphone) to confirm that what I was trying to do was correct - but not being able to douse the mains'l completely was, I believe, the main handicap to my being able to lie more off the wind after the knockdown, until I used the AP to compensate.

If you've any more queries, do email me.

Cheers,

Jeanne
"Nereida"
Ushuaia, Tierra del Fuego
Sounds like the JSD rocks.
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

S/V Dawn Treader - 1989 Hunter Legend 40

Last edited by smackdaddy; 02-16-2011 at 02:35 PM.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #432  
Old 02-16-2011
sailingdog's Avatar
Telstar 28
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: New England
Posts: 43,291
Thanks: 0
Thanked 11 Times in 11 Posts
Rep Power: 13
sailingdog is just really nice sailingdog is just really nice sailingdog is just really nice sailingdog is just really nice sailingdog is just really nice
Of course, anyone who blames the JSD for problems caused by stowing it improperly and using it improperly has other issues. The terminal weight of the JSD should have been secured properly, not just laying out.
__________________
Sailingdog

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Telstar 28
New England

You know what the first rule of sailing is? ...Love. You can learn all the math in the 'verse, but you take
a boat to the sea you don't love, she'll shake you off just as sure as the turning of the worlds. Love keeps
her going when she oughta fall down, tells you she's hurting 'fore she keens. Makes her a home.

—Cpt. Mal Reynolds, Serenity (edited)

If you're new to the Sailnet Forums... please read this
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
.

Still—DON'T READ THAT POST AGAIN.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #433  
Old 03-04-2011
smackdaddy's Avatar
Last Man Standing
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 13,156
Thanks: 85
Thanked 81 Times in 75 Posts
Rep Power: 9
smackdaddy is a jewel in the rough smackdaddy is a jewel in the rough smackdaddy is a jewel in the rough
Okay, I just have a few more pages left in Hal Roth's "Handling Storms at Sea". Great, great book. Definitely one of the best I've read on the subject.

He carefully lays out virtually every major on-boat tactic and off-boat device (sea anchors, drogues, etc.) that's out there. Bottom line...the JSD is the winner.

He doesn't come out and say that - but it's pretty clear by the use-based analysis and stats that this device rocks.

That's enough for me.

(PS - As to the above post, Dog, you might want to rethink slamming a sailor who's actually rounded the Horn. I'd say she deserves your respect - not your nitpicking.)
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

S/V Dawn Treader - 1989 Hunter Legend 40
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #434  
Old 03-04-2011
sailingdog's Avatar
Telstar 28
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: New England
Posts: 43,291
Thanks: 0
Thanked 11 Times in 11 Posts
Rep Power: 13
sailingdog is just really nice sailingdog is just really nice sailingdog is just really nice sailingdog is just really nice sailingdog is just really nice
BTW, I wasn't slamming her. I was pointing out that the JSD terminal weight should be secured so that the JSD doesn't deploy accidentally. Not my fault that you're too stupid to realize that...

Yes, she deserves respect for Rounding the Horn... but failing to properly secure the chain weight at the end of the JSD so it didn't deploy accidentally is a ROOKIE mistake. The fact that you don't understand that speaks volumes about your understanding of basic seamanship.

What would it have cost her to use 2' of small stuff to make sure the chain stayed in place until it was deployed? At most, it would have added two seconds to the deployment time...less if she used a knife. As it was, it nearly cost her her boat and possibly her life.


Quote:
Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post

(PS - As to the above post, Dog, you might want to rethink slamming a sailor who's actually rounded the Horn. I'd say she deserves your respect - not your nitpicking.)
__________________
Sailingdog

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Telstar 28
New England

You know what the first rule of sailing is? ...Love. You can learn all the math in the 'verse, but you take
a boat to the sea you don't love, she'll shake you off just as sure as the turning of the worlds. Love keeps
her going when she oughta fall down, tells you she's hurting 'fore she keens. Makes her a home.

—Cpt. Mal Reynolds, Serenity (edited)

If you're new to the Sailnet Forums... please read this
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
.

Still—DON'T READ THAT POST AGAIN.

Last edited by sailingdog; 03-04-2011 at 09:41 AM.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #435  
Old 03-04-2011
smackdaddy's Avatar
Last Man Standing
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 13,156
Thanks: 85
Thanked 81 Times in 75 Posts
Rep Power: 9
smackdaddy is a jewel in the rough smackdaddy is a jewel in the rough smackdaddy is a jewel in the rough
Quote:
Originally Posted by sailingdog View Post
BTW, I wasn't slamming her. I was pointing out that the JSD terminal weight should be secured so that the JSD doesn't deploy accidentally. Not my fault that you're too stupid to realize that...

Yes, she deserves respect for Rounding the Horn... but failing to properly secure the chain weight at the end of the JSD so it didn't deploy accidentally is a ROOKIE mistake. The fact that you don't understand that speaks volumes about your understanding of basic seamanship.

What would it have cost her to use 2' of small stuff to make sure the chain stayed in place until it was deployed? At most, it would have added two seconds to the deployment time...less if she used a knife. As it was, it nearly cost her her boat and possibly her life.
Wait, I think I'm missing something here...

Jeanne says that the JSD "self-deployed" during the knockdown because the chain was out of the pocket - because she was just about to deploy. "Rookie mistake"? Well, coming from the comfort of a keyboard, I'll take your criticism with a bucket of salt. Of course, if you've rounded the Horn yourself, I'll stand corrected (even if it wasn't during a storm).

But here's the strange part of your post: "As it was, it nearly cost her her boat and possibly her life." (cue eyeroll emoticon)

So, you're saying that because the JSD deployed, she almost lost her boat and her life? I thought deploying the JSD actually saved boats and lives. You're not making sense here, dude.

Or maybe I'm just stupid.
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

S/V Dawn Treader - 1989 Hunter Legend 40

Last edited by smackdaddy; 03-04-2011 at 10:09 AM.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #436  
Old 03-04-2011
BubbleheadMd's Avatar
Chastened
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Edgewater/Annapolis
Posts: 2,869
Thanks: 1
Thanked 56 Times in 52 Posts
Rep Power: 5
BubbleheadMd will become famous soon enough
Send a message via Yahoo to BubbleheadMd
The view is GREAT from the cheap seats, isn't it?

(munches popcorn)
VK540 likes this.
__________________
S/V Old Shoes
1973 Pearson 30 #255
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #437  
Old 03-04-2011
sailingdog's Avatar
Telstar 28
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: New England
Posts: 43,291
Thanks: 0
Thanked 11 Times in 11 Posts
Rep Power: 13
sailingdog is just really nice sailingdog is just really nice sailingdog is just really nice sailingdog is just really nice sailingdog is just really nice
You might want to read what she ACTUALLY WROTE:

Quote:
With winds of 35 kt, gusting 40kt, and seas of 5-6m (always difficult to estimate .... they were a good size but not unduly threatening, with occasional short sections breaking just a little), I was hove to and feeling OK in the conditions. Although not totally happy with being almost beam on to the seas, wind & sea conditions seemed fairly stable and we seemed to be coping OK, so I saw no reason to deploy the JSD just then. (Several people have commented to me here in Ushuaia that there seem to have been a lot of 'rogue waves' around this season, near Antarctica.)

During the knockdown, the JSD 'self-deployed' - it was truly 'ready-to-go' - so it went! ....although I didn't realize it had gone for a time, being busy with other concerns... The mainsl has a very deep third reef, probably equivalent to the trysail, and the staysail was furled to the equivalent of a storm jib size. We were still hove-to and beam on to the seas - but now I was very worried that we might get knocked down again & so tried to change our heading by increasing the stays'l and even unfurling some genoa in an attempt to head us more downwind - but to no avail. At some point, I realized we had deployed the JSD (obviously unintentionally).
Exactly, where did it say that she was about to deploy the JSD??? Yes, I standby my statement that not properly securing the chain terminal weight was a ROOKIE MISTAKE.

Quote:
So now I expected it to keep us stern to the waves but we still had sail up ....I tried to furl the staysail in completely, the line broke loose, the sail unravelled totally and flapped violently, making the whole boat shake with it - I thought the rig was in danger.... It broke the carbon pole. I lowered the staysail to the deck & tied it down, expecting the mains'l to head us up and put us at more of an angle to the waves - it didn't. Of course, with the JSD deployed, the two were 'fighting' each other, so we ended up still nearly beam on to the waves. I lowered the mains'l and managed to tie the headboard down - but two cars had come out of the track, so there was still a lot of windage in the sail, which was billowing rather - so that still kept us beam on.... In the still-big seas, I felt highly vulnerable when I tried to reach up to tie the sail down around the boom, so I had to give up on that.
When you deploy a JSD, you are under BARE POLES—SHE WAS NOT. From the bold-faced statements, it is pretty clear that SHE DID NOT INTEND TO DEPLOY THE JSD, and that it SELF-DEPLOYED because the terminal weight chain WAS NOT SECURED.

Quote:
Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
Wait, I think I'm missing something here...

Jeanne says that the JSD "self-deployed" during the knockdown because the chain was out of the pocket - because she was just about to deploy.
NO, she says it self deployed... but she never said that she was about to deploy it.

Quote:
"Rookie mistake"? Well, coming from the comfort of a keyboard, I'll take your criticism with a bucket of salt. Of course, if you've rounded the Horn yourself, I'll stand corrected (even if it wasn't during a storm).

But here's the strange part of your post: "As it was, it nearly cost her her boat and possibly her life." (cue eyeroll emoticon)

So, you're saying that because the JSD deployed, she almost lost her boat and her life? I thought deploying the JSD actually saved boats and lives. You're not making sense here, dude.
The boat was hove-to when the JSD accidentally deployed, and she lowered the staysail and tried to lower the main. The windage from the main was causing the boat to try and head up, the JSD was trying to cause the boat to swing stern to wind... fighting the weathercocking from the mainsail. This is not how a JSD is supposed to be used... and yes, it nearly cost her the boat.
__________________
Sailingdog

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Telstar 28
New England

You know what the first rule of sailing is? ...Love. You can learn all the math in the 'verse, but you take
a boat to the sea you don't love, she'll shake you off just as sure as the turning of the worlds. Love keeps
her going when she oughta fall down, tells you she's hurting 'fore she keens. Makes her a home.

—Cpt. Mal Reynolds, Serenity (edited)

If you're new to the Sailnet Forums... please read this
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
.

Still—DON'T READ THAT POST AGAIN.

Last edited by tdw; 03-05-2011 at 10:47 AM. Reason: personal abuse removed
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #438  
Old 03-04-2011
Faster's Avatar
Just another Moderator
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: New Westminster, BC
Posts: 14,699
Thanks: 68
Thanked 197 Times in 189 Posts
Rep Power: 10
Faster has a spectacular aura about Faster has a spectacular aura about Faster has a spectacular aura about
Look, you two...

Me, the rest of the mod squad, and I suspect the bulk of the membership here are getting fed up with this sniping and bickering the two of you get into.

We get you don't like each other... It's simple.. there's an "ignore" button here for a reason.

Tone it down and/or give it a rest.

Ron
__________________
Ron

1984 Fast/Nicholson 345 "FastForward"

".. there is much you could do at sea with common sense.. and very little you could do without it.."
Capt G E Ericson (from "The Cruel Sea" by Nicholas Monsarrat)
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #439  
Old 03-04-2011
smackdaddy's Avatar
Last Man Standing
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 13,156
Thanks: 85
Thanked 81 Times in 75 Posts
Rep Power: 9
smackdaddy is a jewel in the rough smackdaddy is a jewel in the rough smackdaddy is a jewel in the rough
Faster, look, we've been through this over and over again. As I've told you guys every time via private messages, I don't "attack" Dog. However, as I've also said, when he (or anyone else) makes statements that are wrong, condescending, etc. - especially to or about people I know or admire - I will respond. What he's said above is flat out wrong and condescending - on many fronts.

Regardless, I have not called Dog names, I have not attacked him, I've just disagreed with his statements when they warrant it...as in this case.

Personally, I don't get ruffled by Dog, even when he's name calling or eye rolling. It's just forum fun. I think you guys know this as I do not make use of the "Report Post" button because I don't like what someone (even Dog) says. I would much rather keep things out in the open.

BUT I shouldn't have to ignore stuff that's being posted (especially when it's wrong and condescending) simply because someone's feelings might get hurt if I call them on it. I'm not asking the mods to do anything here. And I'm not expecting members here to care one way or another about sniping and bickering.

I'm just trying to set the record straight on this incident. I happen to respect, like and correspond with Jeanne. I think she deserves some defense.
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

S/V Dawn Treader - 1989 Hunter Legend 40
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #440  
Old 03-04-2011
Cruisingdad's Avatar
Best Looking MALE Mod
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Washington State
Posts: 9,904
Thanks: 3
Thanked 107 Times in 53 Posts
Rep Power: 10
Cruisingdad is a jewel in the rough Cruisingdad is a jewel in the rough Cruisingdad is a jewel in the rough
We are not taking sides here for you or DOg, SMack, it is just that half the reports we get are snippets between you two. Both you guys are friends to me and the rest of the mods... which is why we wish you could just get along.
__________________
Sailnet Moderator



1987 Tayana Vancouver 42, Credendo Vides, (Mom and Pops boat, F/T Mobile Live Aboards in Puget Sound)

My Website:
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


Follow My Blog at:
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


Follow me on Facebook:

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

 
Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may post attachments
You may edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Heavy weather sailing sailorfrank Learning to Sail 26 09-10-2013 06:32 PM
The Folklore of Weather John Rousmaniere Seamanship Articles 0 05-17-2004 08:00 PM
The Balance of Hull and Sails Steve Colgate Buying a Boat Articles 0 05-25-2000 08:00 PM
The Weather Fax Jim Sexton Seamanship Articles 0 10-20-1999 08:00 PM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 06:24 AM.

Add to My Yahoo!         
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
SEO by vBSEO 3.6.1
(c) Marine.com LLC 2000-2012

The SailNet.com store is owned and operated by a company independent of the SailNet.com forum. You are now leaving the SailNet forum. Click OK to continue or Cancel to return to the SailNet forum.