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Heavy Weather Sailing

125K views 502 replies 110 participants last post by  Bleemus 
#1 ·
I was just curious, as there appear to be many offshore experienced sailors on this site, how do you prepare and deal for heavy weather sailing (or worse weather than you have ever seen) without the experience of having encountered it?

I was on a website that does charters between Hilo, HI and BC, Canada. It seems like a great opportunity to learn about passagemaking from an experienced hand? Have most of you crewed first or was it "baptism by fire" ?

I have read alot on the subject but Im not that naive to think that book smart would translate into competance, but maybe just another resourse to draw on.

Many bios I have read on the site seem to promote learning as you go, which to me appears like a dangerous strategy yet many off you are still here posting....
 
#31 ·
I reckon he was trying to get through it and home. I prefer to run myself up to a certain point. When pitchpoling becomes a real possibility or the seas get past a certain point, I would rather heave to and ride it out. If I was heaving to under bare poles (hurricane conditions) I would want a drogue/chute flying off the bow with a bridle and some sort of snubber for shock absorption. Running with a drogue/chute off the stern is inviting crushed hatchboards and downflooding as well as rudder damage.
 
#40 ·
Running with a drogue/chute off the stern is inviting crushed hatchboards and downflooding as well as rudder damage.
I have never used a sea anchor or a drogue off the bow so not speaking from experience on that but I have run off the wind under bare poles in better than 70kn with drogues to stop surfing. We were sailing at 7kn without drogues and slowed to 2.5 kn with them.

I reckon there is a better chance of rudder damage anchored from the front because no matter how good your anchor is, there will be brief moments when the anchor moves with the waves. When that happens, you're moving backwards and that is when the rudder will break.

At least running with a drogue gives you some forward motion and a wave pooping you will wash over the boat and will not generate enough force under the boat to damage the rudder.

Wash boards breaking?? Down flooding?? Get a centre cockpit - no problem:)

As said, I have never sea-anchored from the bow, never intend to try it.

Oh, and lying a-hull in breaking waves is a really bad idea - I know, I've learned that lesson the hard way.:(
 
#32 ·
Running a drogue or drag or chute off the bow or stern is going to be a choice made primarily because you are being pushed ahead (deploy astern) or pushed astern (deploy ahead).

It is going to depend on which way your boat is being pushed. Now, whether you can still come about so that you have a choice of taking the waves on the pointy end or not--that's something else again. Since the boat is usually designed to go forward, I'd expect that keeping the pointy end forward and dragging from the stern would provide the best motion, and least chance of being pooped over the stern. But the boat design itself is undoubtedly going to affect that as well.
 
#33 ·
Thanks for the feedback guys. The book essentially concluded that the safest overall approach - especially for fin keels - was the bow-to-waves chute technique. And, though loosely, seemed to endorse it as the safest approach for all boats. The resultant bashing certainly did sound uncomfortable - but sure made a believer out of me in terms of making sure a chute is part of my eventual kit.

I sure wouldn't want to risk lying a'hull. That sounds terrifying - though as you guys have said - a lot depends on the boat.

HS - the book obviously pushed setting everything up prior to getting hit - so in that case, the direction of point would have to be already decided. Hence, my question about Skip. I agree with you Charlie that he just probably wanted to get home. Makes sense.

This is a very good, very sobering book, BTW. Force 12 blows, 40'+ breaking/confused seas, and some truly gnarly sailors. Wow. Some great lessons.
 
#34 · (Edited)
I highly recommend renting or buying Mark Schrader's Heavy Weather Sailing (rent on Netflix, buy from US Sail). There is lots of good content from people like Warren Luhrs and Steve Dashew. They describe all these techniques and whether or not they would work depending upon the boat. The general gist is a drogue off the stern keeps the boat moving and tracking straight thus keeping it from broaching or pitch poling. A sea anchor off the bow will keep the boat stationary and breaking waves will be on the bow where (theoretically) the boat is strongest. They touch on the design changes in the past 20-30 years (i.e. bigger beam ratios, "flat" underwater surfaces in the stern) that favor running from the wind a "better" tactic than the old "head-to-wind". If your boat cannot point within a few degrees of the wind when "heave to" then running might be better. Here is an article from Dashew on the subject.

SetSail.com - the serious cruising sailor's website</O:p

Wildflower was built from a Wylie mold so it was definitely more capable running than beating into heavy seas, Wylie's being a light weight racer. He also was slowing the boat down so the autohelm could still steer the boat. Could Skip have turned into the storm and rode it out head-to-wind? He said he didn't think that he could physically stand to ride it out for the additional week it was predicted to blow. I will defer to him on his decision as he has much more experience than all of us combined.

<O:p</O:p
</O:p

Oddly enough, last weekend I did a bit of heavy weather sailing myself, albeit perhaps not to the BFS standards. We were transiting south from Drake's Bay to San Francisco in 27-35 knot winds, seas averaging 15 feet with a two foot wind wave. What made it really snotty was the wave period was only 12 seconds and the amplitude 7.4 (anything over 7 is breaking seas). I can tell you running is a hell of a lot easier than beating through it. (We originally wanted to go through the Bonita Channel. But when we saw some really big breakers inside the channel, we opted to claw our way off shore and then go around the Potato Patch and come in through the main shipping channel - who knew it would be breaking there too.) We were sailing in a C36MkII which performed flawlessly, even when we fell off a wave or two. I was able to steer out of several broach situations. We flooded the cockpit once when a wave broke directly above us and had other numerous close calls. We surfed the heck out of a bunch of waves and broke the 10 knot threshold multiple times and once hit 15 when we came off of a particularly big and nasty wave. We made the 40NM passage in a little over five hours which placed our average speed for the day to around hull speed. I've got a couple of photos of our buddy boat, another C36 from earlier in the day but my skills as a digital photographer are some what lacking. Most of the shots are just the masthead sticking out of the wave.

 
#35 ·
George - thanks for the heads up on the video. I'll definitely check that out. One quick newbie question - I'm not really understanding the difference between a "heave to" and "lying a'hull". I assume they are essentially the same - with boat hopefully assuming a windward point?

Also - I hope I've made it abundantly clear that I have nothing but respect for Skip Allan. I played Devil's advocate in the Anti-BFS thread regarding his rescue (to illustrate people's prejudice in selectively looking at facts in various sailing "disasters") - but I truly admire the guy and his tremendous experience as you rightly point out.

As for your sail, pictures and "BFS standards"...ARE YOU FREAKIN' KIDDING ME!!!! That is huge, dude! Wow! Since I know you'd never do it - I'm stealing it immediately and dumping into BFS. It's just too awesome.

I'm also very glad to hear your positive take on the C36 in these conditions. There is always so much crap thrown on these production boats it's just good to see what they can do in the hands of a skilled sailor.

Thanks for taking the time, George.

Smack
 
#38 · (Edited)
Heh heh, that reminds me of part of Oh Joy's delivery sail. It was dusk and with the GPS dieing, I decided we had better put into Port Townsend for the night instead of running blind in 50 knots. I had helmed across the Admiralty Inlet on a beam reach and needed a break so as soon as we got in the lee of Marrowstone, I gave the helm over to James and Twan to go below. I hit the head, stretched and fished out a butt. About that time, James yells "Charlie, ya don't have time for a cigarette" I looked out to see us sliding from behind the island and hollered back, "No, but I've got time to light one!" On the tiller once more as again the winds slammed us hard over, burying the rail while we swept in towards Port Townsend in a beam sea. Ah yes, this is what I bought a sailing yacht for...
 
#39 ·
Nice pix, George -- man the Bay Area gets some stonking weird weather.

Heaving to means your sails (possibly a storm jib and trysail) are up but counterbalanced, and you are roughly on a close reach. The boat is slightly into the waves and usually you are making just a bit of headway. It's a 'live' boat, even if its progress is mostly leeway. Lying ahull usually means sails are down or flogging, the boat is broadside to the waves and just rolling as they come. Very dangerous position, esp in breaking waves -- the boat can be rolled. Much more passive than heaving to.

According to Beth Leonard, most boats will reach a point in storm conditions when they can no longer heave to or forereach -- the bow keeps getting pushed off the wind and there is the danger of foundering. At that point you can deploy a sea anchor off the bow, or turn downwind and run before it -- maybe with sails up, maybe on bare poles. Much depends on the size and steepness of the waves, and on your self-steering mechanisms. She advises using drogues or parachutes when the boat begins surfing, as that's often prelude to a broach. Running before the wind has the advantage of reducing the apparent wind and keeping the boat bouyant; an anchor off the bow may pin you down as the waves crash over you, possibly removing your rig. OTOH, if you are running before the wind, you may find yourself hand-steering for sixty hours -- and one mistake, you're rolled.

Tough call!
 
#42 ·
My advice is to find some likeminded, competent sailors to join you, pick a day where the wind is a constant 30 plus knots, but under 45 knots. Anything over 45 is just too uncomfortable close to land, remember you are doing his for fun not necessity. Set your main at the dock with your smallest reef 2nd or if you have one 3rd. It is much easier to shake out a reef than put one in. Go out and play. First try hooving too under bare poles, then with a small main then add some headsail feel the difference in the boats attitude. Try sailing downwind with just a small section of head sail and no main, try different points of sail. If you have storm sails try them, better now than when you really need them. The only way to find what you particular boat likes is to get out and do it when you are fresh and prepared. You may just surprise yourself.
 
#47 ·
bobmc - thanks for the walkthrough on heaving to. It seems like one of those extremely basic sailing terms that "everyone should know". I see them used in the books I'm going through - but never quite explained the way you explained it. Thanks again.

omatako - I'm actually looking at the CC for my cruising boat. So now another reason to like them. I just finished "Heavy Weather Sailing" (the book) - and they definitely come down on the side of the chute-off-the-bow technique. I'm starting to think that if I have a "GaleRider" aboard, that might give me the best of both worlds (off the bow or stern). I'm going to look into that more. As for the rudder issue, I hadn't thought of the reverse motion hammering it. In the off-the-bow technique - I suppose you'd just lash/lock the wheel to center? Anything else that one would need to think about there?

Duckwheat - Looks like that fish you're holding got the short-end of the "Existentialism", eh? Agree with your quote.

Simon - hey, dude! Great advice. I'm starting to do that - but in smaller conditions for now since I'm so new at this. But I totally agree with you about preparing one's self through practice. I'll tell you though, thinking about going out in 40 knts right now makes me gulp pretty hard. Holy crap. But I'll get there someday soon. Have a great time in Oz - and if you happen to head up into the Solomon Islands let me know. I lived on Guadalcanal for 2 yearts. I can hook you up with some beetle nut.

Thanks all. It's very cool to talk with real sailors about this stuff. You guys rock.
 
#48 ·
Thanks guys this is a great thread, I would recommend the The Complete Riggers Apprentice to anyone that is considering cruising. The tools of rigging will prove very valuable after heavy weather breaks something, which it will. The adage that duct-tape can fix anything might be somewhat true on a boat, but line and knots WILL fix any sailing component on a vessel.

-Spencer
 
#49 ·
I grew up landlocked and knew no sailors when I started out so learned everything to start with by reading every book and magazine I could get my hands on. Then with only two voyages to my credit managed to talk my way into a delivery job (I had read enough to sound like I knew something) and had my trial by fire. Would not recommend this but managed with a little trial and error, to put into practise what I had read.
 
#51 ·
The reason I recommend using the first hank, and not the head of the sail is that you want it to come down...and if you pull on the head of the sail, sometimes they get twisted up and bind a bit... making it tougher... not easier. :) On my friend's boat we used 3/16" line for the downhaul—since she has yet to join the 21st century and get roller furling. :)
 
#59 ·
The reason I recommend using the first hank, and not the head of the sail is that you want it to come down...and if you pull on the head of the sail, sometimes they get twisted up and bind a bit... making it tougher... not easier. :) On my friend's boat we used 3/16" line for the downhaul-since she has yet to join the 21st century and get roller furling. :)
Hey, I resemble that remark! ;) But I concur...the first hank method keep everything in a straight-line pull down to the turning block.
 
#52 ·
Actually Dog, the more I read about heavy sailing, the more roller furlings are discouraged. They don't "reef" well, and unless you're a cutter rig - or have a secondary track rigged on the stay for a new sail, you're stuck with what you have up.

So it seems that the 19th century technique is still recommended for serious stuff.
 
#53 ·
I think that is truly a matter of perspective. When heavy sailing, unless you are racing - the amount of wind you will be spilling will be far more than optimum sail shape. You will get the windage regardless if you have a stay sail or not if the furler is rolled up.

This is why on "high performance wanted" boats the furlers have two slides so you can change out the sails and go with a different set - to minimize. Most of the observations about "furlers are bad" is because they constantly have the largest genoa they have on the furler.

You also have to balance furlers with the number of crew. Limited crew on board - furlers make perfect sense in heavy weather because you can reduce the sail area from the cockpit. If you actually have experienced crew - then you also have different size jibs to swap out on the furler...Or, even better had already anticipated the heavy weather and already have the storm jib on the furler or the smallest jib you have... The smaller the jib the less impact any of the rolled up sail area will have on the draft on the sail.
 
#54 ·
One of the things that makes furlers appealing to cruisers is that you can “cheat” and carry only one or two headsails. Yes, they may have lousy shape when furled, but speed isn’t necessary the paradigm for cruisers. Someday I’ll post an interior photo of what a boat looks like with four headsails (and four spinnakers) down below. Sailing is all about tradeoffs. And you have to decide how much gear you can afford to pack on your boat.

The problem with furling headsails is threefold. One, as you furl, you lose equal tension up and down the luff. Some sail makers will sew a foam pad or rope along the luff to counteract this problem but it is a stopgap measure and doesn’t completely fix the problem, plus you have disrupted airflow along the luff at full extension. Two, as you furl, you roll up the section of the sail that tends to have built in camber giving you a flatter sail. Not altogether a bad thing as you do want “flatter” as the wind picks up. And Three, as you furl, the center of effort migrates upwards and forward to the headstay, making your boat more tender.<O:p

The upside is (on certain furlers) you can use them as a foil and have the ability to run up a second headsail at the same time as the first and fly them both as doubles (DDW of course). With a prefeed or two, I find them easier to bend on than the traditional hanked on ones.

As you guys are fond of discussing extreme conditions what you should consider is a storm jib on a detachable inner forestay and a storm trysail. You want this configuration as the heads of both sails will pull opposite of each other on the mast giving you a more stable rig. The problem with third reefs or a trysail is there is no opposing stay to counteract the force and the trysail will try to pull the mast out of column. But once again, this is Southern Ocean extreme and not any conditions I foresee in my future.
 
#56 ·
George-

On most furlers, the sail gets baggier as you reef it further... not flatter. If it got flatter, that wouldn't be much of a problem, but it doesn't. A compromise between getting a removable inner stay and using a deeply reefed roller furling headsail is to use something like the ATN GaleSail. It is a "hanked on" sail that hanks on over the roller furled headsail.

IMHO, a very deep third reef is easier and safer than a separate trysail, since a trysail requires that you go forward and bend it on when going from the reefed main to the trysail. Most boats don't have a proper sailtrack to store the trysail on, and bending it on when you're in conditions that require it far more difficult than tucking in a third reef.

One of the things that makes furlers appealing to cruisers is that you can "cheat" and carry only one or two headsails. Yes, they may have lousy shape when furled, but speed isn't necessary the paradigm for cruisers. Someday I'll post an interior photo of what a boat looks like with four headsails (and four spinnakers) down below. Sailing is all about tradeoffs. And you have to decide how much gear you can afford to pack on your boat.

The problem with furling headsails is threefold. One, as you furl, you lose equal tension up and down the luff. Some sail makers will sew a foam pad or rope along the luff to counteract this problem but it is a stopgap measure and doesn't completely fix the problem, plus you have disrupted airflow along the luff at full extension. Two, as you furl, you roll up the section of the sail that tends to have built in camber giving you a flatter sail. Not altogether a bad thing as you do want "flatter" as the wind picks up. And Three, as you furl, the center of effort migrates upwards and forward to the headstay, making your boat more tender.<o>:p

The upside is (on certain furlers) you can use them as a foil and have the ability to run up a second headsail at the same time as the first and fly them both as doubles (DDW of course). With a prefeed or two, I find them easier to bend on than the traditional hanked on ones.

As you guys are fond of discussing extreme conditions what you should consider is a storm jib on a detachable inner forestay and a storm trysail. You want this configuration as the heads of both sails will pull opposite of each other on the mast giving you a more stable rig. The problem with third reefs or a trysail is there is no opposing stay to counteract the force and the trysail will try to pull the mast out of column. But once again, this is Southern Ocean extreme and not any conditions I foresee in my future.
</o>
 
#55 ·
Thanks Jody and George. The racing and cruising mentalities sometimes seem to get mixed in these books, which is exactly why it's good to get practical feedback from experienced sailors here. Always subjective isn't it?

George, in your description of the "detachable inner forestay" rigged jib - is this a true cutter rig? Or is it a secondary, "temporary" stay just for the storm jib? If the latter, how is that rigged?
 
#57 ·
Oh Joy has a removable inner stay with a boom. The rig is a standard yawl so she's not a true cutter. The stay connects to a plate and socket where the original forestay was while the staysail boom stays connected just aft of this. This forestay is fractional rigged and the added headstay off the bowsprit runs to the masthead. The staysail is a hank-on with two reef points. Considering the sail is only 90 sq ft open, with the reefs, you can get it real small. This rig works real well in heavy stuff and gives a lot of flexibility.
 
#58 ·
SD – We are in agreement. What I was trying to say was there isn’t much built-in camber at the clew end of a headsail as compared to the luff end. My first point tried to address the issue that you brought up. That is: as you roll up a headsail, the halyard is no longer pulling tension along the complete luff. All of the tension is either at the head or tack ends. As wind pressure pushes against the middle part, it pulls away from the headstay giving you the ‘belly”. Incidentally, it isn’t doing the sail much good as it cinches tighter against the stay. Another problem I forgot to mention is all that additional fabric wrapped around the stay creates additional wind resistance and may develop into a harmonic vibration, again not so good.

Interesting point about the Gale Sail. I had the opportunity to try one out earlier this year. It is a little bit cumbersome snapping it around a furled headsail and was not that easy to hoist up over the furled headsail. And, you still had all that furled fabric on the headstay creating wind resistance too. It did qualify as a storm jib for the Pac Cup and more than a few boats were equipped with it and it was definitely easier to rig than setting the inner forestay.

Third reef: Again, sailing is all about compromise and we all have to make personal decisions. Last year, I went around and around with my sail maker on this very thing. I wanted one, she didn’t. Her point was for that one time you may actually go to third reef, it wasn’t worth the additional weight aloft for all the re-enforcings. She went so far as to offer to loan or rent a storm trysail to me when I do my Long Pac race. Incidentally, she modeled my design after the one she did for Skip on Wildflower.

Smack – Inner Forestay: Cutters have different principal sail dimensions than sloops and I do not have any experience with cutters other than to say they can either have a boom on their staysail or they can be loose footed. On sloops, the purpose of the inner forestay is to balance out the forces on the mast when using a try sail or third reef. It also allows you to run up a storm jib so that its center of effort is closer to the COE of the mainsail, unlike where the COE would be when using the head stay. These stays are detachable and you need both your rigger and designer to collaborate on setting this up. On the mast, you will have a fitting where you can attach the stay. You shackle it to a deck fitting and use a cam like lock to give it tension. Below deck you have a (detachable) strut transferring the load from the deck fitting to a chainplate glassed into the bow (unfortunately, this usually means the removal of the bow tank). What makes the Gale Sail so appealing is you need to send a guy aloft in deteriorating conditions to set the stay. The good news is you will practically never ever have to use this stuff. I have been on race boats that carried this gear and I’ve practiced deploying it, but I’ve never had to do it in “real life”. Don’t fret about this, instead fret about the high price of Kevlar and Spectra.
 
#62 ·
You can design an inner forestay that can be left permanently attached to the mast, and that uses something like a highfield lever for the bottom end, so that the bottom end can be detached and the stay stowed on deck when not in use. This is very commonly done with Solent Stays, which attach very close to the forestay's attachment point and don't generally require running backstays for it. Properly done, there's no need to send anyone aloft. Sending someone aloft in deteriorating conditions is generally unwise and dangerous.

Inner Forestay: Cutters have different principal sail dimensions than sloops and I do not have any experience with cutters other than to say they can either have a boom on their staysail or they can be loose footed. On sloops, the purpose of the inner forestay is to balance out the forces on the mast when using a try sail or third reef. It also allows you to run up a storm jib so that its center of effort is closer to the COE of the mainsail, unlike where the COE would be when using the head stay. These stays are detachable and you need both your rigger and designer to collaborate on setting this up. On the mast, you will have a fitting where you can attach the stay. You shackle it to a deck fitting and use a cam like lock to give it tension. Below deck you have a (detachable) strut transferring the load from the deck fitting to a chainplate glassed into the bow (unfortunately, this usually means the removal of the bow tank). What makes the Gale Sail so appealing is you need to send a guy aloft in deteriorating conditions to set the stay. The good news is you will practically never ever have to use this stuff. I have been on race boats that carried this gear and I've practiced deploying it, but I've never had to do it in "real life". Don't fret about this, instead fret about the high price of Kevlar and Spectra.
 
#67 ·
For us on the Nordic, the inner forestay interfered with the spinnaker topper and there wasn’t a shroud or stay where we could lash it to so it was both out of the way and didn’t bang around. She did the entire trip stowed in the aft lazarette. We were able to “stow” the runners by lashing them to the lower aft shrouds, but coiled up, they made a tripping hazard (I was the mast man).
 
#70 ·
For us on the Nordic, the inner forestay interfered with the spinnaker topper and there wasn't a shroud or stay where we could lash it to so it was both out of the way and didn't bang around. She did the entire trip stowed in the aft lazarette. We were able to "stow" the runners by lashing them to the lower aft shrouds, but coiled up, they made a tripping hazard (I was the mast man).
That brings about a good point. Given the load capability of today's halyards, and the intended load of a storm jib (and the potential to save the rigging if the forestay were to ever break) that for those of you who don't have extra halyards run, the spin. halyard or topping lift were to be used in the event of being caught in worsening conditions where the furler could be compromised. I know a halyard couldn't be expected to take the load of a steel stay, but the 0% stretch halyards support the loads of sails for the 90' racers put on them could, IMO be easily substituted in a do-or-die situation to help point in a storm.
 
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