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Go Back   SailNet Community > Skills and Seamanship > Seamanship & Navigation
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Seamanship & Navigation Forum devoted to seamanship and navigation topics, including paper and electronic charting tools.


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  #21  
Old 05-18-2009
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ctl411 View Post
Rule 13 Overtaking) Regardless of ANY other rule,an overtaking vessel must keep out of the way. Boat B is a ASS. Boat A was right in getting ready to makeway,risk of collision if in doubt assume collision.
Back on topic.

Agreed - but it is a close call. Most modern sailboats heave-to onto a beam reach. A close hauled vessel is going to be pretty close to the dividing line between crossing and overtaking.

Can the OP give a better description? Did he perceive the other boat as being in the 135 degree arc covered by the stern light?

Thanks

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Last edited by jackdale; 05-18-2009 at 02:50 PM.
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  #22  
Old 05-18-2009
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pretty new sailor here, but hove to is not under movement. You are the stand on vessel under the rules as I under stand them.
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  #23  
Old 05-18-2009
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Originally Posted by freddyray View Post
pretty new sailor here, but hove to is not under movement. You are the stand on vessel under the rules as I under stand them.
There are some interesting subtleties in Colregs. Take a look at post #16

You can be underway with no way on. The more common term is adrift; you are still underway.

Post #19 has a link to a legal decision in the matter.

Jack


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  #24  
Old 05-18-2009
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Well, I gotta take a poke at this - everyone else has!

I think A is burdened because:
  • She's upwind of B
  • She's sailing (presumably) further off the wind than B.
The only issue that would change my mind is if B is unquestionably overtaking A and I think that might be stretching it a bit to determine if the proper angles are met.

All of that said, if there were NO other extenuating circumstances and if I were the skipper of B, I would have changed my course early enough to have avoided this whole brouhaha.

Unless, of course, A was such a bristol-looking vessel that I just needed to see her closer up. In that case, I would have tacked over and sailed close-hauled on port tack.

Paul
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  #25  
Old 05-18-2009
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jackdale View Post
Back on topic.

Agreed - but it is a close call. Most modern sailboats heave-to onto a beam reach. A close hauled vessel is going to be pretty close to the dividing line between crossing and overtaking.

Can the OP give a better description? Did he perceive the other boat as being in the 135 degree arc covered by the stern light?

Thanks

Jack
For the sake of the disussion I'll add in a few more thoughts I had at the time and my thoughts on the situtation now.

First, at the time, I belived myself to be "sailing". Second, the less than 2 knots was SOG, my boat speed was near nill. I had been in this position for perhaps a 1/2 hour or more while the other boat was messing about in the bay, so the small boat had plenty of time to determine I was hove to. My orignal intent was to anchor for lunch in the bay where these small boats were informally racing, but opted to heave to well out of their way rather than risk interfering. I did loose sight of this one boat for a time while I was having lunch. I feel it was a very close call as to whether he started a beam reach behind me, then headed up to a crossing heading that would intersect me amidships. I was essentially on a beam reach with the genny backed and these boats were sailing back and forth parallel to me for the time I was hove to until they broke up and started heading for home.

After reading the replies here, I now think I likely was the burdened vessel, so my question now is what sailing options do you see that I had? As I see it, I could free the helm and let the wind turn me into the approaching boat which seems like a less than ideal solution, or I could haul in the main and slip the genny to port to try and accelerate out of the way, which might not have gotten me out of the way in time and might have elimininated the other boats option to avoid me without tacking. It didn't seem to me like either of these would do the trick, so I fired up the iron genny and was ready to pour on the coals, but by the time I did that, he had altered course enough to pass by within earshot which he took advantage of.

If I were to meet this guy over a beer, I'd admit that I was in the wrong if he'd admit he was having a bad day and acted like an asshat.
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  #26  
Old 05-18-2009
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jackdale View Post
There is no day-shape for hove-to.

Hove-to is sailing. (see previous post #16)

You are also required to maintain a lookout at all times.

Jack
Maybe there should be a dayshape for being hove-to. "Restricted maneuverability" was the closest I could get for SOMETHING that would remedy the original poster's problem.

Of course, maintaining a lookout at all times would also do this.

I've posted here before how I was in an equivalent position where, from about a mile away on an otherwise cold and empty Lake Ontario in mid-October, we encountered a 30 footer that was on a nice, straight collision course.

We had about 15 minutes to figure this out.

He was the windward boat, except that "he" was down below, making coffee, I later thought. He was not visible at the helm at any point, but I must say, he'd done a great trimming job in somewhat lively seas. He was close-reaching for shore and we were broad reaching for Toronto from the eastern part of the lake.

It took only the slightest of tiller movements to put us off his stern, and the shadow of our sails broght his head...complete with lips to coffee mug...to the companionway. "Keep a watch, friend!" we said. A horn may have been tooted. The guy probably thought we'd sailed deliberately out to him to give him a fright, rather than to avoid a seemingly improbable collision on a yacht-free lake.

He didn't have a dayshape, either!
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  #27  
Old 05-18-2009
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jackdale View Post
There are some interesting subtleties in Colregs. Take a look at post #16

You can be underway with no way on. The more common term is adrift; you are still underway.

Post #19 has a link to a legal decision in the matter
Jack, I appreciate your viewpoints. As an instructor on these sort of legal subtleties, I can learn a lot. My instincts are still orientated toward the idea that a boat's No. 1 enemy is land, and No. 2 is "other boats".
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  #28  
Old 05-18-2009
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Originally Posted by midlifesailor View Post
If I were to meet this guy over a beer, I'd admit that I was in the wrong if he'd admit he was having a bad day and acted like an asshat.
That's not Admiralty Law, but it's a seamanlike approach.

Seriously, everything else aside, you could be nailed for not keeping a watch on deck, as Jackdale pointed out. A boat in club racing a few years back here crunched a boat proceeding (on starboard, yet!) to the line and took out part of the deck, a shroud and ripped both main and genoa. The comment from the skipper? "Where did YOU come from?" The murderous and ignorant bastard was invited to leave the club.

That's racing, however. This is, I'm afraid, a plainer sort of sailing. Even if you had been in the same spot "hovering" for two hours, it's not Boat B's job to notice you unless you have an anchor out and a anchor ball on display.
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  #29  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Valiente View Post
That's not Admiralty Law, but it's a seamanlike approach.

Seriously, everything else aside, you could be nailed for not keeping a watch on deck, as Jackdale pointed out. A boat in club racing a few years back here crunched a boat proceeding (on starboard, yet!) to the line and took out part of the deck, a shroud and ripped both main and genoa. The comment from the skipper? "Where did YOU come from?" The murderous and ignorant bastard was invited to leave the club.

That's racing, however. This is, I'm afraid, a plainer sort of sailing. Even if you had been in the same spot "hovering" for two hours, it's not Boat B's job to notice you unless you have an anchor out and a anchor ball on display.
I disagree that I failed to keep a proper watch. There was not going to be a collision. If he had not changed course while I was firing up the iron genny we would have been out of his way regardless. I never went below deck, we and our guests were having lunch in the cockpit. I missed that this one boat did not head to the beach with the rest, but I was alert enough to notice the situation in time and I took action to avoid a collision, but not before the other boat had altered course.

I could have taken action sooner, but at the time I felt I was the stand on vessel, not because I was not under command or limited in my ability to manuver (even though I felt I was limited in my options and had no suitable sailing option), but because I felt like he was coming from behind me before he headed up in my direction. In retrospect and with the benefit of the comments here I honestly failed to consider that we were on the same tack and I was windward, so I could have been in the wrong.
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Last edited by PalmettoSailor; 05-18-2009 at 09:25 PM.
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  #30  
Old 05-18-2009
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Valiente View Post
Maybe there should be a dayshape for being hove-to. "Restricted maneuverability" was the closest I could get for SOMETHING that would remedy the original poster's problem.
Hove-to is not in Colregs and hence has no day shape. The best description would be underway with no way on - adrift. NUC is also not a solution because there is no mechanical problem with the hove-to vessel.

I think that the OP has made some interesting comments in the discussion. RAM would not be a remedy, because the nature of the "work" did not restrict maneuverability.

The OP did the "right" thing by heaving-to onto a starboard tack. That helps maintain a stand-on position, unless you encounter a close hauled vessel who is NOT overtaking.

There is legal precedent with respect to hove-to vessels colliding with other vessels.

There was no collision, we all had an opportunity to discuss a difficult situation.

Jack
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