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Go Back   SailNet Community > Skills and Seamanship > Seamanship & Navigation
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Seamanship & Navigation Forum devoted to seamanship and navigation topics, including paper and electronic charting tools.


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  #51  
Old 05-19-2009
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Question

ScuzzMonkey...
Would two toots on the horn have avoided the situation?
This is not meant to be Monday-morning-quarterbacking, just curious.
Thanks,
Paul
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  #52  
Old 05-19-2009
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AE28 View Post
ScuzzMonkey...
Would two toots on the horn have avoided the situation?
This is not meant to be Monday-morning-quarterbacking, just curious.
Thanks,
Paul
You know, that is a great idea, which had not ever occured to me either at the time or since. It probably could not have hurt anything, at any rate. The horn was close at hand, too. I just simply never even thought about it.

I suppose that brings up another question, which is, does anyone regularly encounter the use of sound signals as coordinating communications in these situations? In twenty some years on the water I've never heard anyone use the "port/starboard/reverse" manuevering signals. Those particular signals have, in my mind, belonged to the same quaint sections of nautical books that discuss the appropriate attire to wear when receiving visits from the yacht club fleet commodore, and although I hear, and have used, the five note "Your intentions are unclear" the others don't seem to be commonly known or used. I'm sure that's why I didn't think of it; five toots probably would have been an option as well, but I didn't think of that because I could see his intentions clearly enough, I just didn't agree with them.

Thank you for bringing it up, though, I'll certainly think of it next time. I'd be curious how many people would recognize the signal for what it was given the apparent disuse, however.
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  #53  
Old 05-20-2009
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Quote:
Originally Posted by midlifesailor View Post
I disagree that I failed to keep a proper watch. There was not going to be a collision. If he had not changed course while I was firing up the iron genny we would have been out of his way regardless. I never went below deck, we and our guests were having lunch in the cockpit. I missed that this one boat did not head to the beach with the rest, but I was alert enough to notice the situation in time and I took action to avoid a collision, but not before the other boat had altered course.

I could have taken action sooner, but at the time I felt I was the stand on vessel, not because I was not under command or limited in my ability to manuver (even though I felt I was limited in my options and had no suitable sailing option), but because I felt like he was coming from behind me before he headed up in my direction. In retrospect and with the benefit of the comments here I honestly failed to consider that we were on the same tack and I was windward, so I could have been in the wrong.
OK, the fact that you were on deck and visible...if not with the engine on and not with the sheets to hand and so on...changes it for me. The wording of the original post somehow persuaded me that Skipper B was looking at a forereaching boat with no one on deck...which was not the case.

Now it appears that while he might have you on a technicality, his behaviour was out of line. You didn't wander into a racing fleet, just his straightest line out to sea. Big deal.
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  #54  
Old 05-20-2009
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Originally Posted by bubb2 View Post
three shapes in a vertical line where they can best be seen. The highest and lowest of these shapes shall be balls and the middle one a diamond.
I don't know if a master can unilaterally declare his movements restricted quite that arbitrarily if he isn't taking something in tow, or dredging or in a special situation like being a 600 foot freighter in a restricted waterway, like a channel, which to my mind means little sailboats should get the hell away.

However, it is in this sense that I advocated the use of dayshapes. Again, can that decision be defended? I do not know. But if I saw dayshapes, my first reaction wouldn't be "is that skipper fibbing in order to drift around during lunch?" My reaction would be "the onus is on me to stand off and keep clear. No big deal."
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  #55  
Old 05-20-2009
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ScuzzMonkey View Post
Thank you for bringing it up, though, I'll certainly think of it next time. I'd be curious how many people would recognize the signal for what it was given the apparent disuse, however.
Every sailor of any experience may not know the sound signals, particularly in the still largely informal training atmosphere of North American recreational sailing. However, the skipper hurling abuse over your heretic insistence on the devilish starboard/starboard passing might think "oh, two toots mean something, so I'll just shut the hell up until this situation resolves itself!"

In this case, those who know the signal would comply, and those who don't would also comply because they understand that further actions on their part other than "hold your course" might find them in a legal cesspit.
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  #56  
Old 05-20-2009
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Valiente View Post
I don't know if a master can unilaterally declare his movements restricted quite that arbitrarily if he isn't taking something in tow, or dredging or in a special situation like being a 600 foot freighter in a restricted waterway, like a channel, which to my mind means little sailboats should get the hell away.

However, it is in this sense that I advocated the use of dayshapes. Again, can that decision be defended? I do not know. But if I saw dayshapes, my first reaction wouldn't be "is that skipper fibbing in order to drift around during lunch?" My reaction would be "the onus is on me to stand off and keep clear. No big deal."
No, I not saying he can arbitrary declare himself "restricted." What I was trying to say that if he does, he must communicate it the the rest of world by day shapes in order for his "restricted" status to be respected by other boats.

Last edited by bubb2; 05-20-2009 at 01:48 PM.
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  #57  
Old 05-20-2009
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It seems to me here that many of you really need to read the Navigation Rules again, both the International & Inland Rules. And achieve a better understanding of the rules. These are Laws at you have to abide by and not try to change them to put yourself in the right.
As far as the sound signals go: Due to the Bridge to Bridge Radio Telephone act for Inland waters of the USA, you don't hear them as often as we use to. Many of the passing, meeting & Overtaking are done on the radio. A good reason to own a VHF and be on the appropriate channel for that area (note Sound signals have presendence over the Radio telephone.)

International waters the Sound signals are used, mainly due to the different languages that could be on that other vessel you wish to communicate with. So sound signals is it.

If you are drifting and there is nothing wrong with your vessel, you are considered to be Underway and shall abide by the Rules. That means if you are in a giveway situation you shall giveway. "Hoved to" does not exempt you from the Rules.

Also the Stand on vessel though required to maintain course & speed may Maneuver at the last minute if a collision cannot be avoided by the giveway vessel's action alone. See you have an escape route out of a terrible situation if you don't freeze up and fail to maneuver.
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Last edited by Boasun; 05-20-2009 at 02:58 PM.
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  #58  
Old 05-20-2009
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Gravestone seen in Gloucester MA.

"Here lies the body of Samuel Jay,
Who died defending his right of way.
He was right as he went along,
But he's just as dead as if he was wrong
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  #59  
Old 05-21-2009
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boasun View Post
If you are drifting and there is nothing wrong with your vessel, you are considered to be Underway and shall abide by the Rules. That means if you are in a giveway situation you shall giveway. "Hoved to" does not exempt you from the Rules..
I never did think that being "hove to" would exempt you from the rules..just a different interputation. However lets say that you are correct about the hove to situation. Now let's say that I'm up on deck dousing the sails in about 25 knots of wind, by myself and boat A is approaching on starboard. Should I raise sail again and try to get out of there? Maybe my sailboat does not have an engine and I'm getting ready to anchor.....but if I don't get that anchor down in time with an anchor ball hoisted I suppose Boat A is in the right.
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  #60  
Old 05-21-2009
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Originally Posted by lancelot9898 View Post
Now let's say that I'm up on deck dousing the sails in about 25 knots of wind, by myself and boat A is approaching on starboard.
Prudence dictates that you ensure you have sufficient searoom and time before performing such a maneuver. I don't know what the rules say about this particular situation, but I imagine it will be something along the lines of "thou shalt not impede the progress of vessels underway".

Quote:
Should I raise sail again and try to get out of there? Maybe my sailboat does not have an engine and I'm getting ready to anchor.....
How do you propose to set your anchor properly without an engine and with your sails on the deck? I suggest you anchor the boat before you douse. Then hoist your anchor ball, then douse the sails.
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