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  #241  
Old 01-12-2010
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This ROR quiz is a great experience for me. While the inland rules really do not pertain to me, occasionally I have American students in my courses.

The sailing vessel / power-driven does perplex me. I was taught (Canadian Yachting Association) that the transmission had to be engaged. Rousmaniere and Chapman seem to to reinforce that view. A friend who is a Transport Canada instructor shares the interpretation.

I have been made aware that US instructors have a different perspective.

Can anyone point to an "authority", such as a legal finding that might be of use?

BTW - while searching for an answer to this question I did come across a Canadian web site that might be of interest: AdmiraltyLaw.com - The Maritime Law and Admiralty Law Page
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  #242  
Old 01-13-2010
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While in a fog ( a real one, not self-induced) you hear a bell ring for 5 seconds, followed by a gong for five seconds?

What it is?

A short time later you hear 3 blasts; one short, one long, one short.

What is this telling you?
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  #243  
Old 01-13-2010
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It's not unusual for a sailboat when racing to have it's engine on to charge the batteries. In this case it is still a sailboat yes?
What about diesel, electrics, now you have all kinds of gray areas.

About the only thing that is black and white is "propulsion system engaged" but the actual regs say "propelling machinery, if fitted, is not being used" (page 6). The only thing, other than sails, that propels most boats is the propeller. The rest of it may be used for many things. If the propeller, jet stream, flux capacitor etc is not activated you are not a power boat.

From a practicality point of view it may not matter much.
If you see a boat with sails up you have to assume it is a sail boat and treat it as such.
If you are a sailboat with your engine on, whether in gear or not you would be well advised to give way to any boat with a sail up.
So while I suspect legally the teachers may be wrong, practically it is good advice to always take the safest course.

The only one that may push it is someone racing as I doubt if they would willingly give way to a little sport fishing boat during a race, charging batteries or not.
On the other hand they still better not hit anyone, racing or not.

And and any event turning on or off the engine, or putting in gear or out doesn't change the situation once a danger of collision exists.

For example If I'm motor sailing and I see a powerboat on my starboard bow and their is a risk of collision I can not just shut off my engine (or take it out of gear) and expect the give-way status to change to the other boat.
Once a danger of collision situation exists the give way boat has no way to become the stand on boat until the situation has been cleared.

Last edited by davidpm; 01-13-2010 at 01:26 AM.
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  #244  
Old 01-13-2010
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jackdale View Post
While in a fog ( a real one, not self-induced) you hear a bell ring for 5 seconds, followed by a gong for five seconds?

What it is?

A short time later you hear 3 blasts; one short, one long, one short.

What is this telling you?

A.) A vessel greater than 100 meters at anchor The bell is near the bow, the gong is aft

B.) it's the same vessel, warning an approaching vessel ( you) of the possibility of collision......
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  #245  
Old 01-13-2010
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tempest View Post
A.) A vessel greater than 100 meters at anchor The bell is near the bow, the gong is aft

B.) it's the same vessel, warning an approaching vessel ( you) of the possibility of collision......

Bingo.
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  #246  
Old 01-13-2010
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At night while making a delivery, a fixed white light appears on the horizon dead ahead. The distance is closing. You are under sail.

What should you do?

Some time later the white light is replaced by a green light below a white light.

What should you do?
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  #247  
Old 01-13-2010
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jackdale View Post
This ROR quiz is a great experience for me. While the inland rules really do not pertain to me, occasionally I have American students in my courses.

The sailing vessel / power-driven does perplex me. I was taught (Canadian Yachting Association) that the transmission had to be engaged. Rousmaniere and Chapman seem to to reinforce that view. A friend who is a Transport Canada instructor shares the interpretation.

I have been made aware that US instructors have a different perspective.

Can anyone point to an "authority", such as a legal finding that might be of use?

BTW - while searching for an answer to this question I did come across a Canadian web site that might be of interest: AdmiraltyLaw.com - The Maritime Law and Admiralty Law Page
Jackdale,

I am a USCG License Instructor. To my knowledge, the engine does have to be engaged in order for a sailboat to be considered a power vessel. Just running the engine with out the engine engaged does not constitute a sailboat to be a power vessel.
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  #248  
Old 01-13-2010
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jackdale View Post
At night while making a delivery, a fixed white light appears on the horizon dead ahead. The distance is closing. You are under sail.

What should you do?

Some time later the white light is replaced by a green light below a white light.

What should you do?

You are the give way vessel is an overtaking situation.
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  #249  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yamsailor View Post
Jackdale,

I am a USCG License Instructor. To my knowledge, the engine does have to be engaged in order for a sailboat to be considered a power vessel. Just running the engine with out the engine engaged does not constitute a sailboat to be a power vessel.

This was my understanding as well, up until this came up in topic here on the forum. ( which is why this is such a great thread )The actual rule, does not seem to specifically address this issue. Not to sound " Clinton-esque" it seems to come down to how the coast guard or regulatory agency would define " used"

It makes logical sense to me, that if the engine is on, it is immediately
available for use. What clouds the issue it seems, is the defiinition of a powerboat .....one that is being " propelled" by machinery.

In addition, a "vessel underway", is one that is not anchored, or made fast to the shore or aground.

Is a power boat, with it's engine on in neutral ..fishing ..any less a powerboat? no..or any less " underway....no
by definition, it's still underway....and it's still a power vessel

The rules are set up, in part, to give deference/or status to the least maneuverable vessel in a meeting situation (s). Once a sailboat turns its engine on, even though it may not be engaged, can it really, claim less maneuverability over a powerboat? Since the propulsion is immediately available. Not really..imo

Which leads me to believe, that if your engine is on, regardless of whether it's in neutral or not, you should act as if, declare yourself a power vessel and display the shapes and lights of a power vessel.

If a power vessel sees your sails "up" they'll likely treat you as a sailing vessel and give way..if they are normally required to do so....who's going to wait to see if you've got water flow from your engine..before they make a move.....but...as far as the " Rules" go..... I would think you are being mis-leading in your ability to maneuver.

I for one, would like to get a more definitive ruling on this...we seem to have touched upon an area of difference in understandings.
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  #250  
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Yam, Tempest et al

I have contacted some folks. Three different countries - all of the same opinion (no transmission = sailing vessel). Should I post in this thread or a new one?

I will start to write it up in a word processor and then post.

If it helps - the following scenario shows why there can be no grey area or ambiguity.



Vessel A on port tack (no engine) thinks he is the give-way vessel; Vessel B on starboard tack (charging batteries with engine) thinks he is give-way. If both give way, by bearing away, we have a head-on situation and the confusion grows.



Jack
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