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post #261 of 463 Old 01-13-2010
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Rule 3, both Inland and International paragraph C. under general definitions.

"The term "sailing vessel" means any vessel under sail provided that propelling machinery, if fitted, is not being used; "

"is not being used" does not say anything about propelling machinery being used for propulsion.

The rules do not require a sailor who sees an engine exhaust and/or hears an engine on another sailboat to know if the other sailboat is in gear or not. That is not the intent of the rules to make us mind readers or require up to have Xray vision to see into the cockpit of a crossing sailboat to see what position his shift lever is in.

If propelling machinery is being used (for any reason) you are no longer a sailing vessel. If you are no longer a sailing vessel, by default you are a power vessel.

I for one, can tell you with absolute certainty after being run down by a power boat and going through the court possess with 2 Admiralty lawyers at my side. Sail up engine off = sailboat. Sails up engine on = power boat. Gear selection does not mater.

One of things being overlooked in this discussion is what are you conveying to the other boaters with a engine on. You are conveying you are under power thus making you a power boat.


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post #262 of 463 Old 01-13-2010
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Now we're cooking!...

Great Research Jack...I find myself...still in need of further convincing one way or the other....I may call some of my contacts tomorrow..and we have a few shows coming up...NY and Atlantic City..here on the east coast of the USA..where I can get some opinions.

To Bubbs.. point......my concern, is that we operate in daylight, darkness and in restricted visibility....the tools we use to convey our intent or status are:
Lights, Shapes, sounds........so it goes further than simply engine smoke or engine noise....if you are sailing with your engine on in neutral in the fog...which sound signal do you transmit? What lights should you display at night?

In practice...we all follow the golden rule...avoiding collision...but in theory this is good food for thought..

I know that I " Sailed" into Great Salt Pond , Block Island last summer...but had my engine on and in neutral....something I often do...I wasn't doing it to charge my batteries...but to have greater maneuverabilty if I needed it.

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post #263 of 463 Old 01-13-2010
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tempest View Post


I know that I " Sailed" into Great Salt Pond , Block Island last summer...but had my engine on and in neutral....something I often do...I wasn't doing it to charge my batteries...but to have greater maneuverabilty if I needed it.
I know the feeling. When I teach sail-only maneuvers in close quarters (docking, mooring balls, etc..) I have the engine going ... just in case.

And thanks for getting some input.

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Not the first, nor the last

Here is another forum with a somewhat similar discussion.

Am I a power vessel....? - Yachting and Boating World Forums

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post #265 of 463 Old 01-14-2010
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Another from the Nautical Institute

Quote:
Jack

Our understanding is that if the engine is disengaged from and not
turning the propeller or other propulsion machinery, then the propelling
machinery is not being used. The engine is only acting as a generator to
charge the batteries.

Brgds


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The Nautical Institute, 202 Lambeth Road, London, SE1 7LQ

Tel: +44 (0)20 7928 1351 Fax: +44(0)20 7401 2817
e-mail: hg@nautinst.org The Nautical Institute Home Page
Its been quiet for a while. Have we run out of ColRegs?

Jack

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post #266 of 463 Old 01-14-2010
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Significance of "propelling machinery"

It dawned on me that we needed a definition of "propelling machinery."


My search led to this:

Quote:
6-98 A sailing under part sail but also using propulsive machinery (‘motorsailing”) so as to give her additional speed is not a “sailing vessel”.
From Marsden on Collisions at Sea, p. 194 TinyURL.com - shorten that long URL into a tiny URL

I think that the part in bold is crucial. Charging batteries and running compressors does not give additional speed.

Anyone else?

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An unambiguous answer

From Handbook of the Nautical Rules of the Road by Llana & Wisneskey

Quote:
Vessels using only their sails for propulsion are included, even though they may be fitted with an engine. Operation of the engine to generate electricity or to heat water, for example, does not make the sailing vessel a power-driven vessel, so long as the propeller (or paddle wheel) is not engaged. Rule 18 tells us what the responsibilities of sailing vessels are with respect to other types of vessels, and Rule 12 does the same with respect to other sailing vessels.
Rule3.html

Chris Llana is a former Coast Guard officer with a B.S. in naval architecture and marine engineering and advanced degrees in marine affairs (MMA) and law (JD). During his tenure as a civilian at Coast Guard Headquarters, he drafted the annexes to the Inland Navigation Rules and wrote other regulations implementing both International and Inland Navigation Rules. Subsequent to that, he worked for Comsat Corporation on policy issues concerning the International Maritime Satellite Organization. He currently writes novels and maintains a web site on the U.S. transition to the ATSC digital TV standard.

George Wisneskey is a graduate of the Coast Guard Academy and holds a master's degree in education from the George Washington University. As chief of the Coast Guard's Rules of the Road Branch before his retirement in 1982, he oversaw the drafting of the Inland Navigational Rules Act of 1980. He is currently an active player in the Neuse River Foundation from his home base on North Carolina's coast.

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Back to the quiz

Ahead you see a red and and green light immediately side-by-side (little or no space between them).

What is it?

How long is it?

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post #269 of 463 Old 01-14-2010
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jackdale View Post
From Handbook of the Nautical Rules of the Road by Llana & Wisneskey



Rule3.html

Chris Llana is a former Coast Guard officer with a B.S. in naval architecture and marine engineering and advanced degrees in marine affairs (MMA) and law (JD). During his tenure as a civilian at Coast Guard Headquarters, he drafted the annexes to the Inland Navigation Rules and wrote other regulations implementing both International and Inland Navigation Rules. Subsequent to that, he worked for Comsat Corporation on policy issues concerning the International Maritime Satellite Organization. He currently writes novels and maintains a web site on the U.S. transition to the ATSC digital TV standard.

George Wisneskey is a graduate of the Coast Guard Academy and holds a master's degree in education from the George Washington University. As chief of the Coast Guard's Rules of the Road Branch before his retirement in 1982, he oversaw the drafting of the Inland Navigational Rules Act of 1980. He is currently an active player in the Neuse River Foundation from his home base on North Carolina's coast.
Jack,

Great Research, I guess we can safely put that question to rest.

Thanks

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post #270 of 463 Old 01-14-2010
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jackdale View Post
Ahead you see a red and and green light immediately side-by-side (little or no space between them).

What is it?

How long is it?

it could be a sailing vessel under 7 meters, under sail.

A vessel under oars..

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