SailNet Community banner
  • SailNet is a forum community dedicated to Sailing enthusiasts. Come join the discussion about sailing, modifications, classifieds, troubleshooting, repairs, reviews, maintenance, and more!

As Privileged When Do You Turn to Avoid Collision

  • Before my boat is within 10 boat lengths (I always give-way)

    Votes: 9 30.0%
  • Before my boat is within 5 boat lengths

    Votes: 7 23.3%
  • When I will not cross without risk of a collision (3 boat lengths)

    Votes: 13 43.3%
  • Never; we need a new gelcoat job and insurance money

    Votes: 1 3.3%

Privileged on Starboard, when do you tack away?

7K views 21 replies 17 participants last post by  billyruffn 
#1 ·
So we have had this happen a couple of times before, where the burdened sailing vessel does not turn away early enough; but never so seemingly close as it was a couple of weeks ago.

We were sailing my 41' C&C close-hauled into 20kts of wind. I was not at the helm, and my girlfriend was gaining some valuable helm time in wind that is above her usual comfort level; and she was doing fine although she was feeling challenged. We were pointing high; as there was a smaller sport sailing boat (28 feet or so) on our starboard quarter that was closing on us but was about 20 degrees off the wind. They had already spilled off and were close reaching. We are holding our course as the boat to starboard closes and plans to pass behind.

At the same time a 40-something foot cruising sailboat is approaching on a close reach from our port. I'm watching them close rapidly and I tell my GF to hold her course as we are on starboard tack and are required to hold course for both the boat windward/astern and in the opposite tacks crossing. I'm watching the cruiser close with no change in bearing and it is now within 200 yards doing about 8kts with our boat doing 5kts. I give a long blast on the air horn to let them know we are on a collision course. No response; no change in sail trim or course. Distance closes to 100 yards and I give another long blast. Again no change in course. Their boat has kids sitting on the bow; and a bow sprit that would easily hole our boat on the doghouse or take us out in the cockpit.

Remember, we are not in a racing dial-up, I have seen no indication of course change, and we are closing at over 12kts. We get down to 3 boat lengths and I scramble to grab the helm and turn us away before we get t-boned. I figured that at least if I turned away the collision would not be as severe. As I round up I see their sails start spilling and they pass to the stern within a boat length; still doing 8kts. The smaller boat on our quarter tacked away as I rounded up (I think). I hollered at the cruising boat asking if they KNEW a starboard tack boat was privileged; and the reply was yes. I hope they also knew they were on port; but I did not get a chance to ask as they were out of range within a few seconds and I had my hands full trying not to get backwinded in 20kts of wind and 3kts of current.

Was I correct in my action here; or did I do anything wrong?
 
See less See more
#3 · (Edited)
The guy broke a number of rules. Sounds like a jerk! I would would have thrown a rotten tomato at him.


The only thing, I can see that you did wrong was sound 1 blast instead of 5 blasts. 5 blasts is the "danger" signal. One blast on inland waters in a meeting situation is " A port to port pass"

In a passing situation is " I intend to pass you on your starboard side"

Or...a long blast is given on a bend in a river or a blind corner.

It doesn't sound like he cared either way what sounds you made. As the give way vessel his responsibility was to take early and substantial action to avoid collision and let you know his intentions he did none of the above.
 
#4 · (Edited)
FWIW the sound signals are for power boat use, and your use most likely just added more confusion to the other skipper's existing perplexity. The common courtesy in sailing is just a loud hail of "starboard", and look for eye-contact with the other helms-person, do they know you are there...

Whenver it first appears that a give-way vessel may not be taking action, you should start preparations to take your own. On large sailboats like these, if you get within five boat lengths of a crossing and the give-way vessel is not clearly avoiding you, you need to bail out...and tacking is the only safe course. No need for panic, anxiety or anger...people screw up and may not handle their boats as diligently as you...just move on and enjoy the day.

And on the subject of eye-contact, that is most important when you are crossing with a powerboat, especailly a fast-mover. More and more boats are using auto-pilots in the operation of their boats, if you cannot get eye-contact with a helms-person on an oncoming powerboat, assume is not-under-command, and take avoiding action, regardless of how many rules make it the give-way party.
 
#5 ·
I really agree with Sailingfool. But from another perspective entirely; I'd say you did not have rip control of the helm away from your GF. You were aware of everything going on around you but for some reason you didn't react in a calm way by just explaining to your GF; That, when other boats are in sight it is always best to anticipate the worse case and take action long before it has to become a "who should do what or not" situation. then show and allow her to take the appropriate action.
 
#21 ·
I completely understand your point Denise; but please understand that this was a situation where I did not feel comfortable with anyone else at the helm but myself (the boat owner). I don't care if it was a guy, gal, or someone with more helm experience. If boats are going to collide; I would rather be the sole person responsible and thereby protect the liability of my crew.

The situation required rounding up head to wind without being backed in 20 kts and current. I know for a fact that my girlfriend does not have the proper experience to do this. She was being "challenged" enough to begin with; at my discretion/teaching and she was doing great with the boat dipping the rail in on puffs. Technically I should have taken the helm earlier when I became aware of the second crossing situation; but I wanted to let her drive and learn more about who has right-of-way, and why.

She was asking about both boats and I reminded her that we were leeward of the boat to starboard; and the boat on port was also give-way; and in both situations we were required to hold course unless we wanted to become give-way to both boats. What I was trying to get her to realize was that unless the boat is leeward and on starboard and we are bearing down on them; we were not give-way (aside from an anchored boat or overtaking, etc.).

I agree that given a 2 boat situation; we should (and would) have tacked away sooner; with her at the helm. The problem was we had a 3'rd boat closing on our quarter and doing so would have put us on another collision course; and us as the burdened vessel. I would not want anyone else helming that one for the potential for collision either. This was not an issue of gender or dis-trust of her actual abilities. I simply did not want the collision to be due to anything other than a port tack boat not keeping clear of us; by removing her from the equation of "who was driving and why didn't you take control of the situation?".

This is a great thread. Thanks for all of the responses and different opinions; you guys are great. I think you guys are right about different saling venues. I would not feel uncomfortable dipping below another boat with less than a boat length in light wind. Our situation was in heavy air with a high closing speed and that's why I got nervous about the oncoming boat with sprit and kids on their bow. We could not see the cockpit/helmsman; they were behind a dodger and sails as the boat was on a reach. Wind was too high and distances to safely turn were too great to yell instead of using the air horn. My single blast was to get their attention; and there was no reply. Next time it will be followed by 5 blasts instead of one. On other occasions a single blast was followed by an immediate course correction; and thank-you wave for giving them a head's up. I never blast the horn if I can make eye contact and am comfortable in the assumption the burdened vessel is going to stay clear.
 
#6 ·
The sounds signals are for any vessel.

I agree that 5 shorts rather than one long (which in Canadian rules is also used by vessels leaving a dock) is a more appropriate signal.

You can also alter your speed by easing sails or luffing up. Heaving-to will stop you. These all depend on the situation.
 
#12 ·
The sounds signals are for any vessel.

I agree that 5 shorts rather than one long (which in Canadian rules is also used by vessels leaving a dock) is a more appropriate signal.

You can also alter your speed by easing sails or luffing up. Heaving-to will stop you. These all depend on the situation.
jack,

I know you have this stuff down real well, but I think this advice needs to be very specific as the rules vary by circumstances, I think we are both correct:
1. the crossing sounds used by the OP are not appropriate due to a power-driven limiitations as follows:

" RULE 34 Maneuvering and Warning Signals
(a) When vessels are in sight of one another, a power-driven vessel underway... "

2. the warning signals that you suggest are appropriate for a sailboat, as indicated by the lack of the power-driven reference in:

"(d) When vessels in sight of one another are approaching each other and from any cause either vessel fails to understand the intentions or actions of the other, or is in doubt whether sufficient action is being taken by the other to avoid collision, the vessel in doubt shall immediately indicate such doubt by giving at least five short and rapid blasts on the whistle..."

3. FWIW in passing situations, the International Rule for sound signals is for all:
"
(c) When in sight of one another in a narrow channel or fairway:
(i) a vessel intending to overtake another shall..."

whereas the US Inland version is for power diven only:
"
(c) When in sight of one another:​
(i) a power-driven vessel intending to overtake another power-driven vessel ..."​


 
#7 ·
I agree that signals may have been confusing, but that's assuming the offender was aware and paying attention in the first place... kinda sounds like neither of those was the case.

The "Hail" and eye contact plan is what SHOULD happen, trouble is in many cases, esp with crew hiking in a breeze is that the port tacker might be completely unaware of the approaching boat (unforgiveable, but common) may well not hear the hail, and no one on the boat will be visible to you.

Also seeing a bowsprit style cruising boat with kids on the bow sailing blindly on a port tack would not have given me any particular confidence in this boat's handling and manueverability in close action.

In a racing situation a one-boat length clearance on a cross is generous... not so much in a cruising one. I'd have had no problem with the cross as described IF the port tacker had acknowledged my presence and indicated his intentions to cross behind.

You did what you needed to do given the lack of interaction between the two of you prior to the cross.. I'd have been annoyed too, under the circumstances.
 
#8 ·
Are we talking racing or cruising here?<O:p</O:p
<O:p</O:p

We are cruisers on our boat and we sail on a large body of water.<O:p></O:p>
My opinion, out day sailing, there is no need to be anywhere near another boat. 10 boat lengths? How about 1,000 feet? It is generally pretty obvious when they don't see you. Give them as much room as they need, it's a great big lake out there.
<O:p</O:p

And I don't tack away; I simply fall off and duck under.
<O:p</O:p

Sorry, Keel, I would never have gotten that close. I understand there can be confusion if the Stand on vessel changes course and than the Give way vessel does the same thing. Or by you changing course you put your self in to a compromising position with the third vessel, but still right or wrong; three boat lengths away is too late no matter who has the Rights.
<O:p</O:p

I might be overly cautious and I agree he was a jerk, but I am always willing to give up rights to avoid such a situation. That's just me and I might take some heat for this. And believe me, I am not saying he was not a jerk or he was within his right, not saying that at all. Try driving the Dan Ryan expressway sometime. <O:p</O:p<O:p</O:p
 
#10 ·
Tim,

I think our tolerance for proximity might be somewhat situational, based on where we sail.

Here on the Chesapeake, many of us have to run several miles up or down river/channel to get to the bigger Bay. There's a lot of ducking and dodging until we reach wide open water, and that can take an hour or more. Sailing along and passing within a fraction of a boat-length of other boats is not at all uncommon -- even for cruisers.

KH,

You did alright. The other boat should have communicated its intent to duck you, by shouting "Hold Your Course" (or simply "Course") and also making an unmistakable course correction. No need for them to cut it so close or play chicken.
 
#9 ·
Keel, where you ever able to make eye contact with the helmsman of the vessel on a port tack before the closing distance was at a critical point? In other words, do you think they did not see you? Good job on avoiding the collision as that is the most important goal and that was accomplished.
 
#14 ·
That's what I teach too. Danger signal's for everyone, maneuvering signals (other than overtaking signal) are for power-driven vessels.

But I might give one blast to a "no looking" port tacker, just to get his attention. As he gets close and I'm unsure of his intentions, then danger signal, and just before you get to where any action on his part will be too late, bail the hell out of there. But regarding sound signals, you're sort of downwind from him, and the sound travels poorly, so no substitute for a good lookout, *especially when you're on port*!
 
#15 · (Edited)
Yes - 34 (a) applies to power-driven vessels. 34(d), the five or more rule applies to all vessels.

Note to self - be specific.

I spend virtually no time in US inland waters, but I should probably know them, in case. The Canadian Modifications are tougher to understand - so I am focusing on them.

I have read little discussion of altering speed, by easing sails or luffing up, as a means of avoiding collisions.
 
#16 ·
A couple summers ago we had a really big sailboat with red sails and an intimidating bow sprit closing in on us. We were a couple miles from land with no one else around, and both had plenty of time to maneuver in the light air. My husband was getting nervous -- did I mention the scary bow sprit? I told him it was ok, and we should hold our course because we were the stand-on vessel. The other sailboat changed course slightly when just a few boat lengths away to duck behind us, passing about a boat length away. Friendly waves all around. Too bad I didn't have my camera.

Puma I trusted that racers know and follow the rules, even when they're just out for a practice sail. Otherwise I might have been nervous too.
 
#17 ·
In a race I stand on or bear off depending on the rules. Cruising or day sailing I don't let anyone get within 10 lengths unless they are flashing a blue light at me.
I'd rather change course when they are half a mile away than play games on right of way.
 
#19 ·
I ususally try to judge closing speed and distance early and look for clues that the other guy knows that I am here. Depending on my mood, if I am on starboard, I will give 5 blasts, hail "Heads-up, starboard" . When on Port, if its going to be a close pass, or just slow down and let him pass. I'll hail, "I see you, please hold your course." When on Starboard I typically steer defensively before I get to a point where there are no more defensive moves to make. When I do take defensive steps, I have no qualms about passing very close astern of another boat. Then again, I have no qualms about passing close astern even if I am on port. I generally try not to pass close ahead when I am on port and I'm not racing,

Jeff
 
#20 ·
I have no qualms about passing very close astern of another boat. Then again, I have no qualms about passing close astern even if I am on port. I generally try not to pass close ahead when I am on port and I'm not racing,

Jeff
With you there, Jeff. In our experience, you really do need to let your 'crossee' know what your intentions are. If they see you approaching at speed planning to cross astern, an uninformed panic tack could put them in your intended path..

I've even seen this with a ferry... it was planning to pass rather close by a newbie sailor - at that last minute he kind of panicked and tacked 'away' only to put himself smack in the ferry's new intended path. Didn't know that little ferry could actually stop that fast - he was lucky.
 
#22 ·
In extremis

You did the right thing. It's called being "in extremis", a "special circumstance" that allows you to deviate from the Rules.

Definition:
In extremis is a Latin phrase meaning "in the farthest reaches" or "at the point of death", generally referring to grave or exceptional circumstances.
 

Attachments

This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top