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Had to happen. Duc, overturned Phila PA

8K views 47 replies 14 participants last post by  deniseO30 
#1 ·
#5 ·
2 young people are still missing. They found the duck under 40ft. Passengers said they were all yelling trying to get the Tug pilot to alter course... Little do they know. I don't care how "seaworthy" ducks are they should have a escort boat with them. 37 people the current in Phila is like 6 knots or more! All duck tours have been stopped pending investigation of course.
 
#7 ·
I took the Duck Tour last October with my son's 7th grade class. They go along the Philadelphia side of the river, right in the shipping lane. I know the investigation is pending, but from the snippets I've heard, there are a couple of questions:

  • Why didn't the captain have everyone put on life vests immediately when the engine went down, instead of waiting until a collision was imminent?
  • Why did he just radio for another Duck Boat to come get them? It seems a police boat or USCG would have gotten there much faster, and could have towed them out of the channel. They certainly got there quickly once people were in the water.

It sounds like the engine overheating might have been caused by nothing more than a loose or defective radiator cap. I once had a minivan overheat for the same reason. Cost only $10 to fix.
 
#8 ·
Preliminary accounts say DUKW called, but no response from the tug:

Tour boat calls before crash went unanswered - CNN.com

One of the tug crew took the 5th rather than talk with NTSB.

I know little about the "Ducks" except having seen them around, but from the photo, I doubt that any small passenger vessel would fare well if caught under the rake-bow of that empty barge.

Anyone know how the tug was made up to the barge? If astern or especially if "hipped-up" on opposite side of the barge, then could have been a considerable blind spot.
 
#10 ·
denise, I've been on the DUCs and they're perfectly up to the job they are used for. If the DUC had been any other type of single-engined boat, a jet boat, a cruiser, a (purely) sail boat, the outcome would have been the same.

The vessel had an engine failure and it only has one propulsion engine. That left it dead in the water, unseen by a barge coming down a main channel. Sailboats and power boats get run over the same way, all over the world, every year.

Now, in 20-20 hindsight, maybe the DUCs and every other single-engine vessel should be prohibited from entering or crossing shipping channels. But there's also the matter of whether anyone on the tug was keeping a proper lookout, visually or on radio.

DUCW? Fun ride! And they're not just old clunkers, there's been a lot of money spent on building the new ones.
 
#11 ·
I've read about this a couple of times. My first thought would be that a passenger/tour boat should have redundant warning signals. The air horn didn't work, but why no flares or even a hand held air horn. Seems someone needs to re-think the safety devices, making sure there are redundant warning systems available, especially if the boat is shut down. Some type of manual warning system, not dependent on the boat's systems should be required.
 
#12 ·
My first thought is that additional warnings from Duck, whether manually or automatically given, may not have been seen or heard by a tug mate who already hadn't heard radio calls on ch. 16, nor seen what should've been a good contact on his radar. There are limits on what a small boat can do to correct an unseeing unhearing watchstander or lookout on a larger vessel.

One thing that might have helped is the tug putting a range warning alarm, or 'guard ring' on his radar, so that any contact getting close would've triggered an audio and visual alarm.

Thinking into the future, how about a warning alarm on the larger vessel that can be activated by a signal from the smaller one? Used to be this way on the old morse code sets, an SOS from one ship would trigger a loud alarm in the radioman's office and stateroom on another. Maybe they could rig up something like this on a local basis, that would trigger a larger vessel's GMDSS or AIS system.

which brings up the other question--did tug have AIS, and did Duck have at least an AIS transponder?
 
#13 ·
The articles I've read said the duck was calling on channel 13, not 16. This isn't entirely unreasonable, as I've been told most large ships monitor 13 and often are easier to reach on 13 than on 16, but I don't know if that is actually true. I saw no mention that they even tried to call on 16 in the two articles I read. I'd be willing to bet that it's the journalists that messed this up, and the duck was actually calling on 16 however, since apparently other boats heard the calls, and I wouldn't expect so many to monitor 13.
 
#21 ·
... I saw no mention that they even tried to call on 16 in the two articles I read. I'd be willing to bet that it's the journalists that messed this up, and the duck was actually calling on 16 however, since apparently other boats heard the calls, and I wouldn't expect so many to monitor 13.
FWIW Channel 13 is the designated ship-to-ship channel. You should be more likely to get a timely response from a commercial vessel on 13 than on 16, as 13 is "their" traffic. See U.S. VHF Channels - USCG Navigation Center
 
#14 ·
As a newbie I have a lot to learn, and try to especially learn from others' mistakes. Since I sail on the Delaware River, emergency communications with tugs and tankers is an important skill to have. I know almost nothing about VHF radios, except to keep it on ch 16 to monitor distress calls. If the reports are correct, I now know to also try ch 13 if I need to hail oncoming commercial traffic - although clearly ch 13 did not work for that particular tug. :mad:
 
#17 ·
Also, keeping white SOLAS handheld flares aboard for signally purposes is a good idea...
 
#15 ·
I really doubt that even if the tug had heard the duck calling it could not have altered course in time. These barges are huge! Tugs pull or push then up down the river all the time. right up to Trenton. Hundreds of tons just doesn't yield to quick maneuvers. It just seems to me that the ducks company could have an escort boat when the things are out there, but what do I know.
 
#16 ·
Reports are that other shipping heard the Duck Boat call. The tug boat mate who may have been at helm is not talking to investigators.

Between Ben Franklin and Walt Whitman Bridges the river PA to NJ bulkhead is all shipping channel, with the dredged channel from about state line to the PA bulkhead. The Duck Boat was reported to be about 150ft from the PA bulkhead, maybe closer as people on shore could throw fire hoses to the passengers.

The barge was empty, sitting high and did not need the full depth of the dredged channel. So why were they so close to the PA bulkhead and why did they not hear or respond to the call from the duck boat?

On a sailboat if you do not have suffcient wind to safely cross the shipping channel, don't try to cross under sail.

If motoring across the channel don't cross until the channel is clear and keep looking over your shoulder.

If travelling in a shipping channel stay near the outer edges and keep looking over your shoulder.

If in trouble call a Pan-Pan on 16. the CG will repeat your Pan-Pan and request other boater come to your aid. Last summer I responded to a Pan-Pan relayed by CG, but by the time I got to the location off the Boeing plant in about 10mins, 3 power boats were already aiding a disabled boat.
 
#18 ·
"which brings up the other question--did tug have AIS, and did Duck have at least an AIS transponder?"
AIS might be the only thing that has a chance of helping. If, and that's a big if, there's someone paying attention to it.
I suspect AIS isn't required on the DUCs but that might be something for the USCG to look into, simply requiring it on all commercial vessels regardless of size, including all "tourist" rides.
Of course there's a requirement for keeping watch already, and we all know how well that one always works.
 
#19 ·
On a summer weekend there are live concerts at Penns Landing near where the collision occured. Power boats will anchor off the concert stage within 100ft of the bulkhead.

Normaly unless a ship is docking at the PA bulkhead the through traffic stays close to the middle of the river.
 
#22 ·
Seems to me that the duc tried everything possible to let everone now what is going on, channel 16,13 and to get there own boat out there. I sail SF bay with lots of ships moving around and my experience is get the frack out of the way. I have have ferries, tugs, tows etc come right at me while I am under sail and I correct couse to affoid but they don't care and come right towards you, I even had them change course to hit me:mad: I have had to fire up the deisel to get out of the way many times. I think these guys have been doing this way to long and have an attidude that you need to move not them, no matter what! It takes miles about 3 for a tug to change course on a tanker and forget stopping so I think the mentailaty is move or get hit. The flares and horns could have helped and all passengers should have life vests on at the first sign of trouble and the crew should have been talking to them on what to do. This seems like alot of sea problems with one thing leading to another and then out of control. Please people don't count on the big guys moving for you have your engine ready to go and follow all saftey procautions early and talk to your crew on what to do if sh#t happens, because it does. Okay you got me fired up because, I do deal with this all the time and I like people and don't won't any one to get hurt. My 2 cents worth.
 
#23 ·
...I think these guys have been doing this way to long and have an attidude that you need to move not them, no matter what! It takes miles about 3 for a tug to change course on a tanker and forget stopping so I think the mentailaty is move or get hit...
Before we all get too upset at these guys for their "attitude," do realize that large vessels with reduced maneuverability have special stand-on status. Sailing vessels do have stand-on status vs. power boats of similar size, but when it comes to the really big guys, they are stand-on and it's the regulation for all pleasure boats - including sailboats - to get out of their way.

I want to see the report from the investigation before getting too hyped up over what went wrong, but one of the reports I heard said that another DUKW boat with passengers passed the vessel in distress, and the captain waved him on because that vessel was fully loaded. Well WHAT ABOUT A TOW? If this guy was in the channel, he should have availed himself of the first possible boat to tow him to shore, even if it inconvenienced the tourists on the other boat. Maybe there's more here than I realize, but it seems that this was a missed opportunity. I'm sure they did not know the barge was coming yet, but one of the key learnings would be to take THE FIRST OPPORTUNITY to get towed out of the shipping lanes, BEFORE the hazard appears.

Obviously this is hindsight - I can only hope that what I learn from this turns hindsight into future foresight.
 
#25 ·
On the C & D there was a wooden schooner destroyed at night a few years ago. I've been on the C&D at night and Know how easy it is not realize until it's almost too late IT'S A BARGE!
Never, ever, think for one moment something that big can "steer" to avoid you!
 
#26 ·
Like I said get the frack out of the way but, what if you can't should not the big guys understand that sometimes thing happen where you are dead in the water. Should they not atleast try to avoid you. As mentioned in my first post I have been under sail and tacked to go astern of the big guys and not always tankers the smaller vessels to that can avoid you and they have changed course and head right for me so I tack again and they change course again what's up with that. I make corrections a long way off and when we get close I have had to turn on the engine and do what it takes to get out of the way. I try to hail them on 16 asking intentions, no answer, try 13 no answer. I am not saying all of them but, enough that makes me wonder why. What if my engine was down or some other problem which limited my ability to manuver why cut it so close. I am supprised that more accidents don't happen out there.
 
#27 ·
well they do draft a easy 30-40 ft when loaded so they are not going to leave the channel for certain. There were times when thought they were turning just to intimidate but then I realized that the channel determines their course. On big water I just don't know. If I see them, I'm no where near them unless it's behind them.

There must be a reason none of them answer the radio too. Not sure I want to know the answer .
 
#28 ·
AIS would have helped, since the DUCK could have hailed the ship by MMSI. I don't know if that would have allowed the ship to do anything, but it is more than using the VHF on 13 and 16 apparently did.
 
#29 · (Edited)
i don't have any local knowledge, but have watched traffic go by in this location for a few days when staying in a condo on one of the city wharves. Look at the river at, above, and below Penn's Landing:

http://xpda.com/nauticalcharts/12313%20DELAWARE%20RIVER%20PHILADELPHIA%20AND%20CAMDEN%20WATERFRONTS.png

And you'll see that while the 40' channel (unmarked by buoys) is indeed close to the city wharves, the river is at least 25' deep bank-to-bank, and is a pretty wide river at that.

So, what do the Inland rules actually say? Rule 9 tells small vessels (under 20 meters) to avoid vessels that can navigate only on the "narrow channel or fairway". The empty barge wouldn't have drawn much at all, and the tug, not over maybe 10-12 feet. So, for neither vessel is this a "narrow channel", at least in a legal sense, i would think.

And while Rules 9(a)(ii), 14(d), and 15(b) give the downbound vessel the right-of-way over upbound, or any vessel going up or down river right of way over a crossing vesse, in certain rivers and the Great Lakes, the Delaware River isn't one of these rivers or waters.

So i think we're left with Rule 18, which (logically) gives right of way to "a vessel not under command", meaning one whose engine has broken down. And we're also left with Rule 5, which requires a proper lookout by sight and hearing, and rule 7 which requires vessels to use all available means to determine if they are in a risk of collision. And the Bridge-to-Bridge Radiotelephone Act, which requires most commercial vessels to carry, and monitor, their radios.

Another section of Rule gives right of way to a vessel "restricted in her ability to maneuver" over other vessels, *except* those "not under command. So the Duck is still privileged, i would think. And the tug and barge, while no doubt not nimble and quick-turning, would likely *not* meet the legal definition of "restricted", or else they should have shown "restricted" day shapes, and been giving Securite broadcasts periodically.

None of this changes the common-sense wisdom of "might makes right" or the "law of displacement", which wisely counsel small vessels to stay well clear of big ones. But legally, it's difficult for me to understand how the duck wouldn't have been privileged over the tow, under the rules.

That said, I don't know the details, nor how the vessel tracklines leading up to the collision.
 
#30 ·
I'm relying on news reports that may be inaccurate, so take this with a huge grain of salt. But it was reported that the barge was first spotted 1/4 mile away, and was moving 5 knots. Do the simple arithmetic and you'll see that even if they had made immediate contact, they had only 3 minutes warning. I am not sure a barge could turn that fast. Of course there still is the question of whether there was an appropriate watch, and a guy taking the 5th makes this an even bigger question. But I am sure the investigation will address the obvious question of whether it would have been possible for the barge to steer around the DUKW with 3 minutes warning, since the relevance of the appropriate watch hinges on this question.

The DUKW ramp is directly adjacent to the Ben Franklin Bridge, and you can see that they go right into the shipping channel as soon as they clear the piers. There is no way to avoid the channel from the Philadelphia side of the river.
 
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