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"I am overpressed with sail"

8K views 28 replies 12 participants last post by  zz4gta 
#1 ·
Went out for a solo on the Patapsco River out of Rock Creek last night. I won't call it a BFS, but it sure turned into a "Whoa Nelly!"

Winds were light out of the W at about 8 kt (and only supposed to be in the 5-10 kt range) when I started out with full main and 110 genny, heading on a port tack close reach towards the Key Bridge in Baltimore. I could see stronger wind on the water ahead, and when I hit it I picked up some strong weather helm -- strong enough to pull me off course and want to fly right up into the wind. So, with one hand on the tiller (which wasn't near enough) I let the traveler down nearly all the way, and the weather helm eased up. Didn't go completely away, but got much less.

I decided to gybe and get on a starboard tack broad reach heading back out the river, paralleling the channel, but outside of it, and did that neatly enough that I gave myself a pat on the back. On the broad reach things settled down nicely, as would be expected -- but as I went along the wind started to pick up to the point that even on this point of sail she wanted to come up into the wind.

Things went from the annoying to the ridiculous quickly after that, with the wind picking up even more to the point that the tendency to round up was pulling me toward the Rock Point Shoal -- the windward shore was becoming more dangerous than a leeward shore!

I decided to gybe again and get on a port tack beam reach just to wait out the wind. It wasn't predicted, and it was within an hour of sunset, and I figured it would blow itself out in a few minutes. It didn't. The further I went on this tack the more fetch the wind had, and while the waves were no problem there was just nothing out that way to block the wind. Time to come about again -- at least this time I could tack instead of gybe.

By this point you are all thinking "Why didn't he heave-to and put in a reef?", and rightly so. The reasons were (1) I had nothing handy to tie down the tiller, and as soon as I released it she wanted to fly right up into the wind and flog the sails to pieces, and (2) I've never practiced putting in a reef solo, and (3) I'd have to go up to the mast to do it, and -- forget it, I'm just heading in.

So to head back I'm on a starboard tack close-hauled, which is just SO FUN with the weather helm even with the traveler all the way down, and the vang on full, and the outhaul tight, and the backstay tightened, and all that stuff. The funny thing was that the genny was board-flat while the main was luffing (not badly enough to call it flogging, but very unseamanlike) -- usually it's the other way around on my boat, with the main tight on a close haul and the genny stalling.

So now's where the "insult added to injury" occurs: I'm single-handing close-hauled on a starboard tack in winds gusting to 20 kt, pinching to beat the band and trying to get back into the creek without the sails falling to pieces. Down at me from starboard and windward comes another sailboat, starboard tack broad reach and full of people... and coming... and coming... and not giving way to the leeward boat at all. I finally had to pinch up even more (giving the mainsail a good hard flogging) to let them pass in front of me, while at least seven people on the boat stared at me as I just pass behind them, missing them by about 20 feet or so. Thanks guys, I really appreciated it.

The rest of the way home was routine. The closer I got to the creek the more the winds lessened, until as I passed the White Rocks they were just a nice 10-12 kt breeze. Still had LOTS of weather helm, which surprised me, but I was so tired by then I'm sure the genny just wasn't trimmed properly and was causing most of it. The faithful ol' Atomic 4 fired right up and put me into the wind to drop sail (thank goodness for the jib downhaul I installed) and took me back into the creek without incident.

Lessons learned: get that reefing system set up better, and find a good tiller tender. All in all a very educational sail and good workout!
 
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#2 ·
Questions:
How tight was your backstay? .... and how much was the forestay sagging off to leeward when you were 'above a beam reach'?

How 'old' is the mainsail, and does it have a 'boltrope'?

Critical question: what is the angle that the topside of the boom makes with the mast when you 'raise' the mainsail?
 
#4 ·
Questions:
How tight was your backstay? .... and how much was the forestay sagging off to leeward when you were 'above a beam reach'?
It's a split backstay with a line and single block to control it. It was as tight as a good pull on it could make it. No clue about the forestay.

How 'old' is the mainsail, and does it have a 'boltrope'?
Old. No idea how old. No boltrope.

Critical question: what is the angle that the topside of the boom makes with the mast when you 'raise' the mainsail?
No clue. What should it be, and why is it critical? A racer or technical sailor I am not.
 
#3 ·
The guys who passed you were almost certainly racing in the RCRA/NPSA Wednesday night series. I've encountered a lot of racing skippers who (falsely) believe they don't have to give way to a leisure sailor during a race. When I'm not racing I just try to avoid boats in a regatta for that reason.

I think if I had been in your situation I would have yelled "leeward boat" to the skipper of the other boat. If they didn't respond to that, words would be exchanged but I'd have tacked off to avoid going into irons as they took me up.

I was in that race last night (and I swear it wasn't me!!!) and it was quite a wild ride!
 
#8 ·
That's not the way I was taught in my ASA classes. Putting on the vang flattens the sail and depowers. Letting out the traveler dumps wind without losing the sail geometry (twisting).

Twisting is a bad thing, if I'm remembering my lessons correctly.
 
#6 ·
jas, dude, that DOES sound like a Whoa Nelly!"

Sounds like you handled it well though - especially single-handed. Though I don't know enough to help you out much, I will say that I've been amazed how much better my C27 sails with a reef in once we hit 20. I can get a lot of weather helm too on my boat - but she really chills out with that reef.

Go try it again and keep tweakin'!
 
#9 ·
jas, dude, that DOES sound like a Whoa Nelly!"

Sounds like you handled it well though - especially single-handed. Though I don't know enough to help you out much, I will say that I've been amazed how much better my C27 sails with a reef in once we hit 20. I can get a lot of weather helm too on my boat - but she really chills out with that reef.

Go try it again and keep tweakin'!
Mine, too. The only time I've reefed so far I knew the conditions in advanced and put in the reef at the dock. I also had two crew with me. She handled great in 20+ winds with two reefs and the little Yankee-cut jib. These winds were a surprise, to say the least.
 
#7 ·
Poor mans way to lock down the tiller - I screwed a cleat into the bottom of the tiller. I then run a line athwwartship to both docking cleats on the back corners of the boat. The line loops a few wraps around the cleat on the tiller. Then when I need to lock it down, I just pull the line tight. It still slips a little and can be forced when necessary, but it allows me to move around the boat to take care of stuff.

Of course the most recent problem I had, was a boat full of first timers. Thinking I could have them hold the tiller, I didn't bother with the line. Problem was, they had no idea which way to push the tiller to turn. I gave the tiller to someone and said hold us into the wind - turned my back and went to the front of the boat. The boat turned and I had to run back and take over the tiller. This happened more than once, but it never dawned on me that they didn't understand which way the tiller turned to turn the boat. This was in 20 mph winds in a 17 foot boat. Eventually I reefed the main - things were much more tame after that. My kids who were also first timers said this first experience sailing was either terrified or board, nothing in between. They are willing to go again, so I've not lost the battle.
 
#11 ·
Question - weather helm

Do you think your rigging / mast is correctly set up?

I know after we made adjustments to the mast, as well as being sure my kick up rudder is completely down, most of that excessive weather helm disappeared. Before it was properly adjusted, I thought I was going to snap my tiller. I'm 6'5" & 285 lbs and the tiller making some ugly sounds. I can easily use one hand now but it still has a little weather helm.
 
#13 ·
Thanks Jeff ..I learned a thing or two ................as always..:)
 
#15 ·
On more thought I'll add is how much the three years I've owned this boat have changed me as a sailor. If this had happened in my first season, I'd have probably ended up a quivering mass of jelly, curled up in the fetal position in the cockpit. As it was, my running thought during all this was "What... a... BOTHER!", as I scrambled around trying to get hold of sheets, keep the tiller from getting away from me and plan my next move.

I won't say it was a fun time (especially when the "racer" refused to give me the right of way -- I saw her name, but I don't remember it and probably just as well), but I learned a lot about how my boat handles -- though I have to caveat that with "I won't claim I had great sail trim going at all times."

I'll definitely check out the rigging tensions, too.
 
#16 ·
The post by smackdaddy is quite pertinent. If you cant go forward to FLATTEN the main, nor reef ...... and the boat is still overpowered so that it begins to 'radically heel', it WILL begin to 'skid' off to leeward. The skid will cause force components from the water to react against the SIDE of the keel and RUDDER and the rudder will 'feel' like the boat has developed weather helm.

Although not 'perfect' a single line reefing system run back to the cockpit for the main might be a very simple solution for your apparent need. http://www.goiot.com/pdf/p48a.pdf .... reef cringle rollers to avoid the inherent FRICTION from a single line reef system. Or, you can use 'stout' "S" hooks and small bullet blocks attached to the reef cringles.
 
#17 ·
Excess heeling was never an issue. I was spilling enough wind from the main by sheeting out that the rail never came close to the water. If I had to name one thing as the source of most of my problems, it would be that I didn't have the main reefed. The last time I was out in wind like that I had two reefs in the main and a little Yankee-cut jib, and she sailed great.

It also would have been nice to have had a tiller tamer, so that I could have let go for a few seconds and trimmed sail without her coming instantly right up into the wind. Before things got real crazy and I was on my broad reach, I did let go of the tiller and she sailed in a straight line for thirty seconds or so before beginning a slow, easy turn up into the wind. Once it started gusting 20+ though, she just wanted to put her face into it.
 
#18 · (Edited)
Rich H has got it.

Get a rigger to look at your rig tension. Or by a gauge and figure it out. Amazing that most non racers don't think rig tension is important and just "deal" with the problems. You need to be able to tighten the forestay, either from a backstay adjuster or a turnbuckle before you set out.

How much rake is in the mast? The more rake the more weather helm. Any prebend?

What is the purchase on your backstay adjuster? On my 25 footer it's 24:1 and it works well. My friend has a hunter 30 or 31 w/ an 8:1 (maybe) adjuster. On a 30 footer, no amount of wheaties in the morning is going to bend that rig w/o serious mechanical advantage.

At the dock w/ no sail up, crank on the backstay as much as you think you can w/o breaking something. Then go forward to the mast and site up the sail track or the front of the mast. Check to make sure it's straight and that the tip looks like it's bending straight aft. Use youre newly purchased gauge to check the tension.

BLOW THE VANG!!! I don't care what your ASA instructor said, go racing in breeze w/ a chute up and get overpowered ONCE. That's all it take to hear someone yell BLOW THE VANG. This twists off the leech of the sail spilling air / power. For example, take away the traveler, take away the vang. In a dingy sailor where all you have is a mainsheet, how do you keep the boat flat in a puff? EASE the mainsheet. This twists off the leech and spills power. During light air sailing the mainsheet is eased to help keep flow attached to the sail, lessen the angle of attack, and adjust for wind gradient aloft. In heavy air attachment is not an issue. There's MUCH less gradient. Vangs are used going downwind to keep the boat powered up. Or when vang sheeting upwind to control twist.

What was your outhaul position? Max? 1/2 of max? Do you adjust it?

As stated above, halyard tension is more important than what most think. It controls the depth and draft (power) of both sails. Problem is, most cruisers don't have the hardware to adjust a halyard under load (most just have a cleat at the mast).

ps - how close were the racers when you adjusted your course? We tend to get within inches if we don't think we'll make contact. Just earlier this week we missed a leeward boat by less than an inch. No contact, no foul.
 
#19 ·
24:1 purchase on the backstay adjuster? What does that look like? I think of purchase being attained by the number of sheaves a line passes through; obviously my knowledge is incomplete, because I can't imagine a 24:1 in that situation.

To a racer our passage may not have looked like much, but I was not racing -- rather, I was pursuing my rather difficult course home while watching a fully-manned boat coming down on me fast and making no attempt to alter course. It's not a race if you're both not in it, and it's not like there was a course marked with buoys and I was obviously cutting through it-- he was coming straight down the river, apparently all alone, and was on a definite collision course with me. I have no doubt that one of us would have t-boned the other had I not changed course, and I wasn't the one that was supposed to change course. Especially since all I could do was go into irons, as falling off would have just put me into his path even more.

I'm not interested in racing, but I could develop a real dislike of them real fast if I run into any more of the "I don't have to follow the rules of the road with a cruiser because I'm in a race" mentality. That attitude is a lot like cyclists who demand to "share the road," yet run stop signs and traffic lights and generally ignore any lane markings that don't suit them.
 
#20 ·
Having your right-of-way disputed by a jerk who does not know/care about the ColRegs has nothing to do with racing, cruising, or bicycling, or whatever....
A small percentage of boaters, power or sail, are always gonna be jerks and only occasionally is there a CG or county mountie right there to see it happen, unfortunately.
(sigh...)

Regards,
L
 
#21 ·
One item I haven't seen discussed: cunningham. If/when you haul on your backstay adjuster, it will flatten and depower the main while tensioning the forestay. Both desirable in heavy air. But backstay tension, combined with wind-induced fabric stretch, will also move the mainsail draft back by quite a lot, which can lead to acute weather helm -- less total power, but that power is concentrated farther aft. While not as good as tensioning the mainsail halyard/downhaul -- and certainly not as good as reefing -- a moderate tug on the cunningham (or forward reefing grommet, if that's all you have) should move that draft right forward again. It's a temporary fix, that vertical wrinkle in the luff, but not to be despised.:)

My tiller tamer is a length of 1/4" line strung between the aft cleats; a 3"x3/4"x1/2"t piece of notched HDPE plastic loosely screwed to the underside of the tiller, 1 foot from the front end; a T-nut epoxied into the tiller, and a knob that screws into the T-nut. Cord runs in the notch. One clockwise rev on the knob pinches the cord against the tiller and holds it in place. One rev the other way makes it loose for hand steering. Cost, two bucks. Makes reefing and heaving-to dead easy. I'll try to get a photo tomorrow.

I forget -- do you have a roller furling headsail?
 
#23 ·
Do you have a downhaul rigged on your genoa? I ask because making the jib go away has proven the key to reefing our main singlehanded.

I head up, furl the jib, and ease the main -- not blowing it completely, but setting it for a beam reach while the boat is above a close reach. The upshot is something like heaving to: the boat keeps a little headway on, which maintains it head-to-wind even w/out the tiller locked. I find the boat takes care of itself in this setup while I go forward and reef.

Might be too much hassle with a hanked-on sail, tho.
 
#24 ·
Yes, I do have a downhaul on the genny. It is the single greatest upgrade I've made on the boat since I've had her, I think. I had a bit of a hassle getting it set up so that it didn't get pinched by the hanks -- I had the line led up through all the hanks, and when the sail started coming down the lower hanks would pinch the line, making it impossible to lower the sail any more.

I found that not putting the line inside the hanks at all worked best. I have a small turning block right at the base of the forestay, so the line stays parallel to the stay regardless of the tack I'm on. Since it can't be pinched by the hanks, I never have problems getting the sail down.

I thought I read in another thread that heaving to was a good way to put in a reef. What advantage do you think making the jib go away gives you over just heaving to?
 
#25 ·
Once you drop the jib (or furl it) you will lose a good bit of forward speed which might be desirable in conditions where the waves are close together. Without a jib you can hold most points of sail but with more leeway and less speed. 'Fore reaching' is pretty easy to do with just the main which is basically pinching as much as you can into the wind with plenty of luffing but requires someone at the helm.
If you can heave to you should be able to tie/lock your tiller/wheel over to one side and go forward. This assumes you have the room to drift to leeward.
Heaving to can be fun. Try it on your Newport 28'. You might like it.
 
#27 ·
The 24:1 is a combination of 2 triple blocks and a couple cascade purchases. Pretty common for a backstay setup. In larger boats that don't allow hydraulics they go to 48 and 72:1 purchases. What is your purchase on your backstay?

I also asked how close was the race boat? Racers are not going to change course unless they know they are going to hit you. You moved out of the way. My guess is that they were at least 100yds or more from you when you changed course. This has nothing to do with racers being A holes, they're racing and trying to take the most direct route.

I do not ignore colregs. If that's your impression of racers than you're completely off base. Racers are used to maneuvering boats in very close quarters at speed in challenging conditions. They're always pushing it. If it makes you uncomfortable, then you did the right thing, and got out of the way. It's not going to cost you 2 or 3 places in a race if you change course by 10*. My guess is you never had to change course in the first place.
 
#28 ·
/rant
I passed about 20 feet astern of his boat -- well within "biscuit toss." I slightly resent your presumption that I can't tell the difference between 50 feet (when I started my avoidance maneuver) and 100 yards. If I tell you I went into irons and still only missed him by 20 feet or so, does that tell you how close we were? 100 yards would be nearly eleven boat lengths; if he were that far in front of me I wouldn't have worried about changing course.

And I really don't want to hear about how "racers are used to maneuvering boats in very close quarters at speed in challenging conditions." I wasn't in a race, I was single-handing in windy conditions and trying to keep things under control, and I had the right of way. He had no business maintaining course because he thought we might miss by whole inches or maybe a couple of feet. It's required of him to make an obvious maneuver to avoid me.

And what if his judgment had been wrong, and we had collided? That would have been a lovely scene: two boats t-boning in 20 kt winds, one or both possibly dismasted and taking on water, maybe injuries. All because a racer didn't want to lose a couple of seconds in a meaningless race?

It's one thing of both of us had been racing -- if both boats have accepted the risks of racing and understand "accidents will happen," then it's an understood matter. He should have known very well I wasn't part of the race and put both of us at risk.

/rant

As for the purchase on my backstay, I think it's 4:1; but here's a picture of the setup.
 

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#29 ·
I see your point, did you hail to the other boat stating your rights? To me it sounds like the other boat would've crossed clear ahead if you had room to luff up and didn't catch his stern with your bow. Hence no overlap and no rights. A hail of "leeward boat" could've made them alter course to give you a little more breathing room. In any case rule 1 is avoid collision, sounds like you did that, good on ya.

I had a similar backstay setup on my boat, didn't work real well and got really hard to tension under a high load. I'd look at changing it out with some high tech line and lightweight blocks to reduce the friction and get more control over your backstay/forestay tension.
 
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