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Go Back   SailNet Community > Skills and Seamanship > Seamanship & Navigation
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Seamanship & Navigation Forum devoted to seamanship and navigation topics, including paper and electronic charting tools.


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  #31  
Old 06-26-2014
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Re: Sailing downwind is much harder than sailing upwind.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Minnesail View Post
Wait, what?

Isn't apparent wind always ahead of true wind? If the true is on the beam wouldn't the apparent be ahead of the beam, like a close reach?

I have trouble visualizing this sometimes.
That is true. You are correct.

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Last edited by jackdale; 06-26-2014 at 05:46 PM.
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  #32  
Old 06-26-2014
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Re: Sailing downwind is much harder than sailing upwind.

I've given it some more thought and you are right. The only explanation I can think of is that the wind direction is genuinely shifting, then.
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  #33  
Old 06-26-2014
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Re: Sailing downwind is much harder than sailing upwind.

Check VMG while gybing and while wing on winging. Quite possibly better wing on wing despite the lower speed. Without a spinnaker I tend to just gybe on deep angles (140 in lighter air, then deeper) because I prefer sailing that way and it allows me to try and take advantage of shifts but I've read that direct downwind wing on wing with the jib poled out is more effective.

Really though you need a different head sail. Jibs / Genoa's are just not designed to sail deep like that. If you're worried about jumping to a poled out symmetrical (which is a fair leap without prior experience) see if you can find an asym and a sock. They really open up performance both downwind and while reaching plus it gives you something to do at exactly the point you might otherwise get both hot and bored.

If I'm serious about going somewhere downwind I fly a spinnaker.
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  #34  
Old 06-26-2014
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Re: Sailing downwind is much harder than sailing upwind.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jackdale View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Minnesail View Post
Wait, what?

Isn't apparent wind always ahead of true wind? If the true is on the beam wouldn't the apparent be ahead of the beam, like a close reach?

I have trouble visualizing this sometimes.
That is true. You are correct.

True and Apparent Wind Calculator
No, Jack - that is only true if you are moving. Otherwise apparent wind is the same as the true wind.


Just sayin'...
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  #35  
Old 06-26-2014
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Re: Sailing downwind is much harder than sailing upwind.

This is a fantastic topic for newbies, but it's also a great topic for long time sailors... Because we sometimes get bogged down in details, and forget to approach it simply...

One thing that has been bugging me lately (keep in mind I've sailed a lot of slower sailboats, in light air)... Broad reach rarely brings the AWA as per the masthead much past 90 degrees, until I am nearly pushing DDW, or say 150-160 TWA.

In the same winds beam reach, I'll see something like 50-55 AWA, and say I am doing roughly 6 knots... with perhaps 8-10 knots true. I'm flying a 155, and full main, as I fall off though, and ease, I can feel the boat slow considerably... 4.5 to 5 knots... Closer to 4 knots wing on wing. My point is broad reach barely shows 90 on the windex, until I am pushing say 150 true wind angle. Sounds like you all are confirming what I am seeing. Not sure why I never noted any of this before, I have a tendency to trim by feel though so perhaps my focus is usually on other things.

Actually just the other day I was running DDW wing on wing (actually about 170 degrees as even wing on wing you have to be off 180 a bit to keep the genoa filled)... heeled to windward a bit (to try to neutralize helm), with whitecaps and rollers in say 14-16 knots wind... I was surfing, and digging, and popping back out... a wild experience at 8-9 knots boat speed! Chasing down an S2 7.9 (which by the way does much better downwind, at least until I whip out the masthead kite, which would have been a chore solo in that stuff). Anyway, a good steady breeze, and you can tweak to your hearts content to find out what works best...

PS: The S2 7.9 is a fractional, with a large roachy main (making it seemingly easier to trim downwind), my Capri is a balanced rig, with most of its sail area forward, so presenting the proper area downwind is touchy (leaving deep angles out of my reach)... again until that masthead kite comes out, then its GAME ON!
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  #36  
Old 06-28-2014
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Re: Sailing downwind is much harder than sailing upwind.

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Originally Posted by Classic30 View Post
No, Jack - that is only true if you are moving. Otherwise apparent wind is the same as the true wind.


Just sayin'...
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  #37  
Old 06-29-2014
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Re: Sailing downwind is much harder than sailing upwind.

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Originally Posted by jackdale View Post
As you might have guessed... I'm an 'expert' at this: I spend much of my time going nowhere.
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  #38  
Old 06-30-2014
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Re: Sailing downwind is much harder than sailing upwind.

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Originally Posted by Classic30 View Post
As you might have guessed... I'm an 'expert' at this: I spend much of my time going nowhere.
You know, if you if you would get rid of that OOOOOOOOLD woody boat you have, you might figure out what apparent wind really is!LOLOLOL

Then again, if you did that, those old woodies moght go bye bye.....that would be bad too! hmmmmmmmm

decisions and disCUSSions to follow!

Marty
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  #39  
Old 06-30-2014
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Re: Sailing downwind is much harder than sailing upwind.

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Originally Posted by blt2ski View Post
You know, if you if you would get rid of that OOOOOOOOLD woody boat you have, you might figure out what apparent wind really is!LOLOLOL

Then again, if you did that, those old woodies moght go bye bye.....that would be bad too! hmmmmmmmm

decisions and disCUSSions to follow!

Marty
ROTFLOL!! Marty, as usual you are so RIGHT!

If ever you are over this way, you and me need to go for a sail (or more likely a "sit" if the wind isn't blowing at least 10kts...)
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Last edited by Classic30; 06-30-2014 at 02:30 AM.
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  #40  
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Re: Sailing downwind is much harder than sailing upwind.

If you can get your boat up here in the next day or two, there are some 20-30 knot winds predicted in the straight of juan de fuca, even 10-25 here in the main part of the southern salish sea.....should make your boat move some I'd reckon. With something called a gps coordinate, not really sure what what of them is, or at least a real paper chart, I should be able to find the home of the WILD or is that WILEY BP and maybe we can talk him into going out and entertaining us with that stringed thingy he plays.......no need to ruin my hearing any more with his singing........did I really type that?

Marty
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