Sailing downwind is much harder than sailing upwind. - Page 4 - SailNet Community
Seamanship & Navigation Forum devoted to seamanship and navigation topics, including paper and electronic charting tools.

 7Likes
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
post #31 of 48 Old 06-26-2014
Senior Member
 
jackdale's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Calgary, AB, Canada
Posts: 9,035
Thanks: 27
Thanked 59 Times in 56 Posts
Rep Power: 7
 
Re: Sailing downwind is much harder than sailing upwind.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Minnesail View Post
Wait, what?

Isn't apparent wind always ahead of true wind? If the true is on the beam wouldn't the apparent be ahead of the beam, like a close reach?

I have trouble visualizing this sometimes.
That is true. You are correct.

http://www.sailingcourse.com/keelboa...calculator.htm

__________________
ISPA Yachtmaster Offshore Instructor Evaluator
Sail Canada Advanced Cruising Instructor
IYT Yachtmaster Coastal Instructor
ASA 201, 203, 204, 205, 206, 214
As I sail, I praise God, and care not. (Luke Foxe)

Last edited by jackdale; 06-26-2014 at 04:46 PM.
jackdale is offline  
Quote Quick Reply Share with Facebook
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #32 of 48 Old 06-26-2014
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: San Francisco Bay area
Posts: 2,629
Thanks: 5
Thanked 62 Times in 62 Posts
Rep Power: 5
 
Re: Sailing downwind is much harder than sailing upwind.

I've given it some more thought and you are right. The only explanation I can think of is that the wind direction is genuinely shifting, then.

Bristol 31.1, San Francisco Bay
MarkSF is offline  
Quote Quick Reply Share with Facebook
post #33 of 48 Old 06-26-2014
Windseeker
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Oceanside CA
Posts: 168
Thanks: 2
Thanked 8 Times in 8 Posts
Rep Power: 8
 
Re: Sailing downwind is much harder than sailing upwind.

Check VMG while gybing and while wing on winging. Quite possibly better wing on wing despite the lower speed. Without a spinnaker I tend to just gybe on deep angles (140 in lighter air, then deeper) because I prefer sailing that way and it allows me to try and take advantage of shifts but I've read that direct downwind wing on wing with the jib poled out is more effective.

Really though you need a different head sail. Jibs / Genoa's are just not designed to sail deep like that. If you're worried about jumping to a poled out symmetrical (which is a fair leap without prior experience) see if you can find an asym and a sock. They really open up performance both downwind and while reaching plus it gives you something to do at exactly the point you might otherwise get both hot and bored.

If I'm serious about going somewhere downwind I fly a spinnaker.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
theonecalledtom is offline  
Quote Quick Reply Share with Facebook
post #34 of 48 Old 06-26-2014
Once known as Hartley18
 
Classic30's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posts: 4,806
Thanks: 45
Thanked 65 Times in 65 Posts
Rep Power: 9
   
Dock
Re: Sailing downwind is much harder than sailing upwind.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jackdale View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Minnesail View Post
Wait, what?

Isn't apparent wind always ahead of true wind? If the true is on the beam wouldn't the apparent be ahead of the beam, like a close reach?

I have trouble visualizing this sometimes.
That is true. You are correct.

True and Apparent Wind Calculator
No, Jack - that is only true if you are moving. Otherwise apparent wind is the same as the true wind.


Just sayin'...
Minnesail likes this.

-
"Honestly, I don't know why seamen persist in getting wrecked in some of the outlandish places they do, when they can do it in a nice place like Fiji." -- John Caldwell, "Desperate Voyage"
Classic30 is offline  
Quote Quick Reply Share with Facebook
post #35 of 48 Old 06-26-2014
4ksb expert.
 
SHNOOL's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: East Stroudsburg, PA
Posts: 1,624
Thanks: 11
Thanked 81 Times in 77 Posts
Rep Power: 9
 
Re: Sailing downwind is much harder than sailing upwind.

This is a fantastic topic for newbies, but it's also a great topic for long time sailors... Because we sometimes get bogged down in details, and forget to approach it simply...

One thing that has been bugging me lately (keep in mind I've sailed a lot of slower sailboats, in light air)... Broad reach rarely brings the AWA as per the masthead much past 90 degrees, until I am nearly pushing DDW, or say 150-160 TWA.

In the same winds beam reach, I'll see something like 50-55 AWA, and say I am doing roughly 6 knots... with perhaps 8-10 knots true. I'm flying a 155, and full main, as I fall off though, and ease, I can feel the boat slow considerably... 4.5 to 5 knots... Closer to 4 knots wing on wing. My point is broad reach barely shows 90 on the windex, until I am pushing say 150 true wind angle. Sounds like you all are confirming what I am seeing. Not sure why I never noted any of this before, I have a tendency to trim by feel though so perhaps my focus is usually on other things.

Actually just the other day I was running DDW wing on wing (actually about 170 degrees as even wing on wing you have to be off 180 a bit to keep the genoa filled)... heeled to windward a bit (to try to neutralize helm), with whitecaps and rollers in say 14-16 knots wind... I was surfing, and digging, and popping back out... a wild experience at 8-9 knots boat speed! Chasing down an S2 7.9 (which by the way does much better downwind, at least until I whip out the masthead kite, which would have been a chore solo in that stuff). Anyway, a good steady breeze, and you can tweak to your hearts content to find out what works best...

PS: The S2 7.9 is a fractional, with a large roachy main (making it seemingly easier to trim downwind), my Capri is a balanced rig, with most of its sail area forward, so presenting the proper area downwind is touchy (leaving deep angles out of my reach)... again until that masthead kite comes out, then its GAME ON!

"Rum Line" a 1982, S2 7.9 - Production boat limit tester, blue-water bucket owner, with wine taste on a beer budget.
SHNOOL is offline  
Quote Quick Reply Share with Facebook
post #36 of 48 Old 06-28-2014
Senior Member
 
jackdale's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Calgary, AB, Canada
Posts: 9,035
Thanks: 27
Thanked 59 Times in 56 Posts
Rep Power: 7
 
Re: Sailing downwind is much harder than sailing upwind.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Classic30 View Post
No, Jack - that is only true if you are moving. Otherwise apparent wind is the same as the true wind.


Just sayin'...

__________________
ISPA Yachtmaster Offshore Instructor Evaluator
Sail Canada Advanced Cruising Instructor
IYT Yachtmaster Coastal Instructor
ASA 201, 203, 204, 205, 206, 214
As I sail, I praise God, and care not. (Luke Foxe)
jackdale is offline  
Quote Quick Reply Share with Facebook
post #37 of 48 Old 06-29-2014
Once known as Hartley18
 
Classic30's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posts: 4,806
Thanks: 45
Thanked 65 Times in 65 Posts
Rep Power: 9
   
Dock
Re: Sailing downwind is much harder than sailing upwind.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jackdale View Post
As you might have guessed... I'm an 'expert' at this: I spend much of my time going nowhere.

-
"Honestly, I don't know why seamen persist in getting wrecked in some of the outlandish places they do, when they can do it in a nice place like Fiji." -- John Caldwell, "Desperate Voyage"
Classic30 is offline  
Quote Quick Reply Share with Facebook
post #38 of 48 Old 06-30-2014
Senior Member
 
blt2ski's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 6,862
Thanks: 0
Thanked 26 Times in 25 Posts
Rep Power: 12
   
Re: Sailing downwind is much harder than sailing upwind.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Classic30 View Post
As you might have guessed... I'm an 'expert' at this: I spend much of my time going nowhere.
You know, if you if you would get rid of that OOOOOOOOLD woody boat you have, you might figure out what apparent wind really is!LOLOLOL

Then again, if you did that, those old woodies moght go bye bye.....that would be bad too! hmmmmmmmm

decisions and disCUSSions to follow!

Marty

She drives me boat,
I drives me dinghy!
blt2ski is offline  
Quote Quick Reply Share with Facebook
post #39 of 48 Old 06-30-2014
Once known as Hartley18
 
Classic30's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posts: 4,806
Thanks: 45
Thanked 65 Times in 65 Posts
Rep Power: 9
   
Dock
Re: Sailing downwind is much harder than sailing upwind.

Quote:
Originally Posted by blt2ski View Post
You know, if you if you would get rid of that OOOOOOOOLD woody boat you have, you might figure out what apparent wind really is!LOLOLOL

Then again, if you did that, those old woodies moght go bye bye.....that would be bad too! hmmmmmmmm

decisions and disCUSSions to follow!

Marty
ROTFLOL!! Marty, as usual you are so RIGHT!

If ever you are over this way, you and me need to go for a sail (or more likely a "sit" if the wind isn't blowing at least 10kts...)

-
"Honestly, I don't know why seamen persist in getting wrecked in some of the outlandish places they do, when they can do it in a nice place like Fiji." -- John Caldwell, "Desperate Voyage"

Last edited by Classic30; 06-30-2014 at 01:30 AM.
Classic30 is offline  
Quote Quick Reply Share with Facebook
post #40 of 48 Old 06-30-2014
Senior Member
 
blt2ski's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 6,862
Thanks: 0
Thanked 26 Times in 25 Posts
Rep Power: 12
   
Re: Sailing downwind is much harder than sailing upwind.

If you can get your boat up here in the next day or two, there are some 20-30 knot winds predicted in the straight of juan de fuca, even 10-25 here in the main part of the southern salish sea.....should make your boat move some I'd reckon. With something called a gps coordinate, not really sure what what of them is, or at least a real paper chart, I should be able to find the home of the WILD or is that WILEY BP and maybe we can talk him into going out and entertaining us with that stringed thingy he plays.......no need to ruin my hearing any more with his singing........did I really type that?

Marty
Classic30 likes this.

She drives me boat,
I drives me dinghy!
blt2ski is offline  
Quote Quick Reply Share with Facebook
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

By choosing to post the reply above you agree to the rules you agreed to when joining Sailnet.
Click Here to view those rules.

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the SailNet Community forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
Please note: After entering 3 characters a list of Usernames already in use will appear and the list will disappear once a valid Username is entered.


User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in









Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page



Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome