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Sailing downwind is much harder than sailing upwind.

21K views 47 replies 28 participants last post by  bblument 
#1 ·
Am I the only one who thinks this?

I am at the one-year anniversary of owning my first sailboat, and I have been working hard to learn as much as I can to become a somewhat competent sailor. I've been trying to get 15 to 20 hours a week of sailing in, usually in the form of two 8 to 10 hour days on the water. Since I sail primarily on a relatively small lake with lots of power boaters and crazy, twisty winds, I have been getting a good workout in tacking, gybing and making way on all points of sail.

So, okay, just wanted to get it established that I am a newbie but not totally clueless at this point.

There was a thread somewhere recently ripping on people who motor upwind, as if beating was a huge challenge, and people in general always seem to talk and act as if sailing close to the wind a tough thing to do. I have found it to be the easiest point of sail of all. I crank the jib or genny (I have a working jib and 130 genoa) in as close as it will go, head up until the telltales are looking good, tweak the main (backstay, vang, cunningham), and that's that. After that it is just steering to the wind. Maybe playing the mainsheet a bit if it is gusty. I know I am not ready to run with the racers or anything, but there are 4 or 5 similarly-sized trailerable keelboats on this lake and I tend to pass them on a beat, so I figure I must be at least somewhat getting the hang of it.

I'm kind of drifting off my point, though, which is that when close hauled it seems really simple and obvious to me how to trim the sails and when to head up or fall off on the helm. The telltales and the shape of the sails themselves are dead easy to read and it is simple to understand what controls to use when they don't look like they should.

When broad reaching, it is black magic as far as I can tell. I have several well-recommended books on sail trim and (leaving aside for the moment the facts that they sometimes contradict each other and that they are all written with a mastehead rather than a fractional rig in mind) I understand the theoretical aspects of what I want to do, but I have an amazingly tough time getting enough feedback from the wind, waves and sails to actually make it happen.

Is it just me?
 
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#2 ·
I'm probably in about the same situation as you, except I wish I could get 15 hours a week sailing. I'm lucking to get one good full Saturday, and usually only half to 3/4 of it even then.

First, as to why people choose to motor upwind, I think it has less to do with the difficulty in trimming the sails, and more to do with the fact that you're sailing a much longer distance to cover the same VMG, you're having to do more work, tacking the sails every time you change tacks, you're heeled over, depending on the boat and the wind, anywhere from 10° to 30°, and it's generally a longer, more laborious, less comfortable way to get where you're going. If you're out there for the thrill of sailing, then that's part of the experience. But if you've got somewhere you're trying to go, then it may be easier to fire up the motor.

Once you sail lower than a beam reach, the feedback you get from the telltales becomes useless. The sails are less like wings and more like big foils, catching as much wind as possible.

I've taken the approach -- and for God's sake take this only for what it's worth and not a bit more -- that below a beam reach the objective of sail trim is to present as large a surface area to the wind as possible. Tighten the outhaul, vang (if equipped, which mine isn't) and cunningham on the main to take out the belly of the sail, and ease the jib until it luffs, then trim it in a bit. If you go low enough, a whisker pole to put the jib/genoa out goosewinged is even better.
 
#3 ·
The sails are less like wings and more like big foils, catching as much wind as possible.
Foil is a synonym for wing, so I don't think that's the word you want, but I get what you mean.

I've taken the approach -- and for God's sake take this only for what it's worth and not a bit more -- that below a beam reach the objective of sail trim is to present as large a surface area to the wind as possible. Tighten the outhaul, vang (if equipped, which mine isn't) and cunningham on the main to take out the belly of the sail, and ease the jib until it luffs, then trim it in a bit. If you go low enough, a whisker pole to put the jib/genoa out goosewinged is even better.
Yeah, it is the lack of feedback from the telltales and generally close to zero apparent wind that makes it so hard for me to figure out the right thing to do to optimize.

I don't think you want the belly out of the sail. At least, I have been easing outhaul, cunningham and backstay as I turn downwind, and only keeping enough vang on to hold the boom down without putting tons of tension on the leech.

I have tried running straight downwind with the headsail whiskered out, but there really are a lot of big wind shifts as you sail around this little lake so it is a little stressful trying to avoid a bad crash gybe.
 
#4 ·
Well, I don't have a lot of time to expound... but even broad reaching (since the OP mentions this in the last parag.) you should still be able to get some use out of the tales. More importantly I have found that people tend not to ease the sails as much as they should. Actually on most points of sail this is true. So ease the sail out until it's obvious you're losing speed or stalling the sail. And maybe even more than going upwind it's important to keep in mind the effect your AWA has on your VMG. A very slight change in AWA could result in a significant change in VMG. Another case of where a handheld GPS is real handy. (project out a point that is directly downwind from your next mark but several miles beyond. Use that to see what your VMG is b/c if you use the mark you're steering for, your VMG is going to decrease the further left or right you get from a direct course.)
But that's another lesson for another day...
Just keep practicing. I used to take my Laser out on the local reservoir (pre 9/11) beat all the way to the far end and then sail back downwind jibing the WHOLE way to get better at jibing. I mean like 1.25 miles of this every 10-15 seconds!
Not that it did a whole lot of good.... lol
 
#7 · (Edited)
More importantly I have found that people tend not to ease the sails as much as they should. Actually on most points of sail this is true. So ease the sail out until it's obvious you're losing speed or stalling the sail. And maybe even more than going upwind it's important to keep in mind the effect your AWA has on your VMG. A very slight change in AWA could result in a significant change in VMG. Another case of where a handheld GPS is real handy. (project out a point that is directly downwind from your next mark but several miles beyond. Use that to see what your VMG is b/c if you use the mark you're steering for, your VMG is going to decrease the further left or right you get from a direct course.)
That's a great suggestion for using the gps to project a point so I can see VMG.

As for sufficiently easing sails downwind, one thing that has me probably tending to err on the side of overtrimmed is the way the main starts getting mashed up against the raked-back spreaders when it is out more than halfway. I've been worried about chafe.
 
#10 · (Edited)
Hi, Lyd! *waves* I agree, sailing downwind means sail trim, boat trim, and rudder feedback are less obvious than beating. Your sails transition from lifting foils to drag bodies, but not all at once. Little-known fact: Even a symmetrical spinnaker is a lifting foil, along its windward edge and maybe 1/3 of its girth. Also along its foot. The rest of it is pure drag.

Likewise the main and jib. Around a broad reach, it becomes difficult to keep flow attached all the way to the leech. But you should still try to keep the front portion of your sails lifting, and that means tweaking attack angle. Watch the tells on your jib and the luff on your main; the main will probably give up the ghost first, because the oval mast section will develop turbulence behind it. That's why they invented rotating masts.:D

Try shoving your jib leads as far forward as you can. Refresh my memory -- even on the Mk2, the working jib sheets inside the shrouds, true? You could run a second set of sheets to the genoa tracks, or in light air we sometimes hand-fly the jib outside the shrouds from a broad to a deep reach. The farther you can get that clew away from the centerline, the farther back on your jib the airflow will stay attached.

Your apparent wind will seem all over the place as puffs, surfing, and boat speed shift it thru 60 degrees or more. Trim for the average and steer small. Bag out the main (ease outhaul and downhaul), and then vang the boom. Maybe give a tug on your leech line, if you have one. The combination will curl the leech in while keeping max draft on the sail. Our SJ21s have no roach at all on the mainsail, so you don't need to vang too hard to prevent the top from twisting off. By vanging, you can ease the boom out farther without the sail hitting the spreaders -- and as Sailordave says, you want that boom out as far as you can get it, to milk lift as long as possible.

Other interesting quirks of the SJ21 below a beam reach: In light air, get everyone back and induce some heel -- to leeward near a beam reach, to windward DDW (may need a preventer for that.) Remember, this boat is just a big dinghy and wants to be sailed like one.:) In following waves, especially swells, get the weight aft to keep the rudder in the water. In middling-to high winds and small waves, sail the boat flat flat flat with the weight centered. I've had ours cooking along a deep reach (~150 TWA) at 7.8kts sustained -- not quite planing, but well above hull speed and with the apparent coming right over the beam. At those speeds, the stern begins to squat like crazy: you'll hear a noise like a sump pump sucking air. That's why you need to move crew weight more forward as boat speed increases. It won't ever break loose entirely, but you'll gain from raising the transom out of hole.

I confess I'd love to try broad reaching with the keel up, but I'm too chicken.:D
 
#15 ·
Bag out the main (ease outhaul and downhaul), and then vang the boom. Maybe give a tug on your leech line, if you have one. The combination will curl the leech in while keeping max draft on the sail. Our SJ21s have no roach at all on the mainsail, so you don't need to vang too hard to prevent the top from twisting off. By vanging, you can ease the boom out farther without the sail hitting the spreaders -- and as Sailordave says, you want that boom out as far as you can get it, to milk lift as long as possible.
I have leech lines on all my sails, main, jib and genoa, but I have no idea what to do with them. It's the one sail control I have not even touched yet. None of the leeches chatter so I've taken a don't fix what isn't broken approach. ;-)

I assume your spreaders are raked like mine -- what are your thoughts about the sail flattening against them and the shrouds?
 
#11 ·
Is it just me?
It is not just you, and you have made some very keen
observations in your post. Sailing off the wind with a strong
steady breeze can be as easy as winging out the headsail
and keeping the wind astern. Other times it may feel like it is
impossible to get a feel for. As you noted, your apparent wind
can drop to almost nothing and tell tales quickly become
ineffective below 120deg AWA and mainsail trim is not a obvious when
running in lighter winds, you can pull in or let out several feet of
mainsheet with no discernable effect on performance.
The most helpfull device is a masthead wind indicator, like the
ubiquitous Windex. If you keep your boom close to perpendicular
to your AWA, you will be in the ballpark. If you are not using your
wisker pole on the jib, then you will need reach up to get any
effectiveness from the jib. Moving the lead outboard and forward
will help in this regard.
 
#12 ·
For what my opinion is worth... if you're new enough to be asking these questions, and don't get me wrong, they are good questions ... then for pity's sake put the dang gps in the dry bag and pay attention to the boat!

There are enough fine points to fill fifty forums, but the basics are simple. Any fore-and-aft rig, from a 12-meter to a Sunfish, wants to have the wind flowing over the sails at roughly the same angle no matter what the angle to the true wind and no matter what the point of sail.
This is the angle where the sail is acting like a wing (foil if you prefer).

Sounds like you have the hang of beating. Observe the telltales on a beat, and try to visualize what they are telling you about the angle at which the apparent wind is striking the sail. (Angle of wind to sail, regardless of where the sail is relative to the boat centerline.)
Now bear off to a beam reach. Ease the sails until the telltales and the wind in the sail look about the same as they did on the beat. (Until you figure this out, don't mess with the sail shape controls, they will only confuse the issue.) You may have to fiddle a bit between the mainsail trim and the jib trim until you get both right.
You should notice that the apparent wind is a little forward of the beam even though you are sailing directly across the wind. But you should also notice that the angle at which the wind impinges on the sails is about the same as on a beat.
Once you have that nailed, bear off to a broad reach. Not too close to a run, maybe 135 degrees off the wind. Ease the sails and you will discover they are still at the same angle to the wind (not to the boat!) as they were on a beat.
This is how a fore-and-aft sail wants to work, in "lifting" mode like a wing. As you continue to bear off the wind you will reach a point where the sail won't go far enough out to make the same angle. (Unless you are on a Laser, then good luck!) Then the sail is unavoidably in "drag" mode and you get what you get. This is why sailing dead downwind in a normal sloop is slower than jibing from broad reach to broad reach.
Maybe I'm dumping too much qualifying info. I hope you can tease out the basics from what I'm telling you.
Now that you've sailed way down the lake you can get out the gps and use it to find your way back. ;-p
Fair winds
-Glenn
 
#13 · (Edited)
Highlandman's summary is excellent.

To respond to your proposition, the first difficult thing for a beginner to learn is how to sail to windward. Even a leaf on a pond can drift downwind, without any assistance from a sentient being. Often you'll see newbies broad reaching back and forth until they can't go any further downwind, and then they motor to windward. If you're sailing to windward reasonably well, you've made it over the first big hurdle.

Sailing downwind isn't difficult to do, but it is difficult to do well. When you're broad reaching, you can still generate aerodynamic drive, but the closer you sail to dead downwind, the less your sails are acting like a foil, and the more they are simply creating drag. As you have seen, telltales often provide less information to you when sailing downwind, simply because in light air, there often isn't enough force left in the wind's movement to lift them. When you don't have telltales or even a masthead vane to reliably diagnose what the wind is doing, then sometimes the only solution is for you to know what sails should look like in the ambient wind conditions, and then trim your sails so that they match the ones that you see in your mind's eye.

When sailing wing and wing, the angle on which you can steer either to port or starboard of DDW is fairly narrow. If you aren't constantly focused on steering, it's easy for a wind shift or for inaccurate steering to cause the boat to gybe unintentionally.

It's also important to know your boat. Most boats are dreadfully slow in light winds sailing DDW. Some ultra light boats accelerate quickly and plane easily when broad reaching in light air. In strong winds, many boats sail most efficiently DDW.

Calvin is generally correct that maximizing sail area downwind is an important element, but sail controls should generally be eased when sailing downwind in lighter winds, to create deep pockets in the sails, and more power.

We can make a few suggestions, but the truth is that learning the fine points of sailing is a neverending process, that will occupy your mind indefinitely. The best way to learn about it is to think about it, read about it, and do it.
 
#14 ·
Downwind sailing is just less 'intuitive' than upwind, the feedback is more indirect, and most people don't "feel" the wind very well with the backs of their heads.

It takes experience to suss out what works. mostly, on a broad reach or a run, you're trying to ease the forces on the rudder so you steer, and hence "brake", less. So you heel the boat to leeward to induce weather helm, and to windward to induce lee helm. In between these two is the ideal of neutral helm, where the boat's center of lateral resistance is directly below the sails' center of effort. It's why dinghies are heeled to windward on a run.

Be patient, and it will come. Or it may never come. My wife is downright deadly upwind, can get in any boat and make it point and foot better than anyone else. But she hates steering downwind and isn't that fast at it. So don't feel bad if it never gets 'natural' for you, though it probably will.
 
#19 ·
You should, I agree, present more perpendicular surface area to the wind while sailing downwind. You want to do this by easing out the boom to get the boom perpendicular to wind direction.

However, don't go one step futher and start creating even more surface area by hauling in hard on the outhaul and vang and therefore flattening the sail.

You want to keep the belly in the sail because it can still generate some amount of lift with the curvature. Also, if you imagine that most of the force on the main (sailing downwind) is because the wind hitting the sail has to change directions from perpendicular to the boom to parallel to the sail (energy then transferred by a change in momentum) then you'll get more energy from this with added belly. With an entirely flat sail, the wind would change direction by only 90 degrees. With belly in the sail, the wind would change direction by >90 degrees and therefore would transfer more momentum (it would go from hit the sail squarely to leaving the edges of the sail slightly "backwards").

Just remember ... parachutes sail downwind very effectively ... and they are both perpendicular to the wind with a lot of belly. Also, the same goes for spinnakers.
 
#20 ·
Sailing Up, Across, and Down Wind

I find sailing up wind fun until a point. When the waves are big and the winds strong (30 kts or very gusty), I find it not enjoyable. Strong constant winds with relatively flat seas are ok. But once we starting fighting the helm, with a reduce headsail and a reef in the main, it's time to rethnk the plan. I don't mind tacking as long as it isn't every few minutes.

Beam reaches are fun, again unless the winds are shifty or the waves large. I actually find it sometimes difficult to trim the sails, especially if the boat wallows in the waves or if the wind is not steady.

Downwind, I pretty much dislike most times as my boat is a deep fin keel and has a relatively flat transom, so any waves really push the boat and make her rolley poley all over the place in any type seas. That being said, one of the sweetest things I have done this year was sail wing-n-wing without a pole in about 7 kts of wind. Wind direction was steady (+ 5 deg), which the only way we could have done this. I really hate gybing when the wind pipes up. Too much going on for two people on our boat sometimes.

DrB
 
#21 ·
I sail wing-on-wing, invariably, just about everytime I head out in the summer. I'm in Charleston on the Ashley River and there is a dead spot as far as wind goes between the Coast Guard Base and Battery Park ... so, unfortunately, I have to wing-on-wing in light winds making minimal way. It sure looks cool though. It's a sloop equivalent to setting the royal sails :)
 
#26 ·
If you think that's fun, wait until you add a spinnaker to your sail locker.

I called in sick to work, shanghai'd my kids into crewing for me and gybe'd our way home from Thomas Point lighthouse. I'm ready to try it in a stronger breeze.

Lydanynom-

How'd all these suggestions work out for you? Have you tried your BFS Global Regatta course yet?
 
#23 ·
I just threw together a crude video of our SJ21 deep reaching last weekend. It was more instructive before YouTube's compression got at it, but there are still some details worth noting.



TWA was about 160 degrees, tucked behind my left ear. You can see the jib clew flutter as the mainsail blankets it. But the jib luff is still drawing as is the main -- just around the 1 minute mark, you can (maybe) see the telltales show apparent wind just behind the beam: the boat is moving almost 4 kts in 8 kts true. I'll take it.;)

Boom is well out; could afford to go out farther. Jib cars shoved all the way forward; outboard sheeting would be better, since the inboard cars pull the clew in. The lazy sheet is very slack so its weight doesn't pull the clew in still more. I should have eased the halyard/downhaul and outhaul more; the mainsail is too flat for such light winds. (It was blowing 15-18 earlier.)

Vang is on, but not too hard. Yes, vanging flattens the bottom of the sail slightly -- but not vanging permits the upper half to twist off, luff, and spill its air. That's where the good breeze is, and you want to snag it. Don't vang so hard you flex the boom, because that will pull draft out of the sail bottom. But if you bag out the foot and then fail to vang, all your lovely captured wind is gonna slide right up the sail and spill off the twisted leech. Vang just enuf to bring that top batten back into line. On deep headings -- once you are confident the aft portion of the sail is no longer lifting -- the leech line can be used to cup the fabric still farther, giving more drag power. (Make sure to ease it when heading back upwind, tho, or it will spoil the exiting air.)

Subtle, subtle technique: we can spend our whole lives learning to sail downwind well.:eek: I intend to!:D And preferred tactics will change according to boat type. The SJ21 is a light, flat-bottomed sloop that easily gets to hull speed in modest winds, even on working sails. On a heavier cruiser, you would probably sail deeper angles and pile on sail area.

I love this sport.
 
#24 ·
That's great, Bob, thanks. I snagged an extra day off tomorrow and am anxious to try some of these suggestions. I wish there was actually going to be some wind in the forecast, but oh well.

If you do another video my vote is for leaving the original audio track. ;-)
 
#25 ·
Just a further point I don't think I've seen mentioned. I think it also depends on the boat? Different boats do better or worse on different points of sail on account of their design characteristics. So if the boat is handling poorly on a particular point of sail it may not even be anything to do with your skills.
 
#29 · (Edited)
Sometimes if the wind is light and the true wind is off the beam but the apparent is a broad reach, I like to keep the sails trimmed almost for a beam reach, with a good foil shape. Why? Because sometimes you get a gust, the apparent swings round to beam reach, and if the sails are correctly set up you'll get a really good burst of speed that can last quite a while after the wind drops again.

The slight loss of thrust when the wind is behind you is more than made up for when it swings around to beam reach.

If the sails were right out for the lulls, when you get a gust you LOOSE power.

This works well coming home down the Oakland Estuary.
 
#33 ·
Check VMG while gybing and while wing on winging. Quite possibly better wing on wing despite the lower speed. Without a spinnaker I tend to just gybe on deep angles (140 in lighter air, then deeper) because I prefer sailing that way and it allows me to try and take advantage of shifts but I've read that direct downwind wing on wing with the jib poled out is more effective.

Really though you need a different head sail. Jibs / Genoa's are just not designed to sail deep like that. If you're worried about jumping to a poled out symmetrical (which is a fair leap without prior experience) see if you can find an asym and a sock. They really open up performance both downwind and while reaching plus it gives you something to do at exactly the point you might otherwise get both hot and bored.

If I'm serious about going somewhere downwind I fly a spinnaker.
 
#35 ·
This is a fantastic topic for newbies, but it's also a great topic for long time sailors... Because we sometimes get bogged down in details, and forget to approach it simply...

One thing that has been bugging me lately (keep in mind I've sailed a lot of slower sailboats, in light air)... Broad reach rarely brings the AWA as per the masthead much past 90 degrees, until I am nearly pushing DDW, or say 150-160 TWA.

In the same winds beam reach, I'll see something like 50-55 AWA, and say I am doing roughly 6 knots... with perhaps 8-10 knots true. I'm flying a 155, and full main, as I fall off though, and ease, I can feel the boat slow considerably... 4.5 to 5 knots... Closer to 4 knots wing on wing. My point is broad reach barely shows 90 on the windex, until I am pushing say 150 true wind angle. Sounds like you all are confirming what I am seeing. Not sure why I never noted any of this before, I have a tendency to trim by feel though so perhaps my focus is usually on other things.

Actually just the other day I was running DDW wing on wing (actually about 170 degrees as even wing on wing you have to be off 180 a bit to keep the genoa filled)... heeled to windward a bit (to try to neutralize helm), with whitecaps and rollers in say 14-16 knots wind... I was surfing, and digging, and popping back out... a wild experience at 8-9 knots boat speed! Chasing down an S2 7.9 (which by the way does much better downwind, at least until I whip out the masthead kite, which would have been a chore solo in that stuff). Anyway, a good steady breeze, and you can tweak to your hearts content to find out what works best...

PS: The S2 7.9 is a fractional, with a large roachy main (making it seemingly easier to trim downwind), my Capri is a balanced rig, with most of its sail area forward, so presenting the proper area downwind is touchy (leaving deep angles out of my reach)... again until that masthead kite comes out, then its GAME ON!
 
#40 ·
If you can get your boat up here in the next day or two, there are some 20-30 knot winds predicted in the straight of juan de fuca, even 10-25 here in the main part of the southern salish sea.....should make your boat move some I'd reckon. With something called a gps coordinate, not really sure what what of them is, or at least a real paper chart, I should be able to find the home of the WILD or is that WILEY BP and maybe we can talk him into going out and entertaining us with that stringed thingy he plays.......no need to ruin my hearing any more with his singing........did I really type that?

Marty
 
#41 · (Edited)
HA! :D

Actually, Marty, a very good friend of mine lives in Sechelt, BC, with his lovely wife and their 2 kids and we've been planning to visit them for a year or so now. If that's the same area that both your kind self AND the rare and endangered stringed-instrument playing BP is to be found (I didn't see that mentioned on the tourist brochure! :eek: :eek: Woo-hoo!! I'm excited already!) , I might have to stick it on our holiday schedule for next summer (early June 2015). Whadayathink??

..and my parents are leaving here in a few days for a cruise with friends on the "Maple Leaf".. :)
 
#42 ·
CAM,

We are probably a 3 hr drive south from the BC/US border. If sailing, a LONG day! Some of them stinker boats could probably get here in half a day.....still less than a car. BP is about an hour north of me via auto, 2-3 via my boat at 5-6 knots in a semi reasonable straight line....

Marty
 
#43 ·
CAM,

We are probably a 3 hr drive south from the BC/US border. If sailing, a LONG day! Some of them stinker boats could probably get here in half a day.....still less than a car. BP is about an hour north of me via auto, 2-3 via my boat at 5-6 knots in a semi reasonable straight line....

Marty
Sounds do-able.. although I'd rather visit Canada than deal with US customs.

Anyways will touch base with you further down the track, Marty.. to give you plenty of time to repel boarders (and no warning at all for that other guy). ;)
 
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