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-   -   Gennaker Set, before or after genoa furl? (http://www.sailnet.com/forums/seamanship-navigation/73485-gennaker-set-before-after-genoa-furl.html)

clancy11 04-08-2011 07:36 PM

Gennaker Set, before or after genoa furl?
 
We are racing a Beneteau 411 and have a gennaker. We have a new selden bow sprit to help improve our sets and trim. Many recommend furling the genoa before setting the gennaker. I am recommending we set the gennaker like we would a spinnaker by hoisting outside the genoa, trimming and then furling the genoa. Others recommend furling the genoa before beginning the gennaker set..I think that takes too long, but the time may not be an issue if we furl the genoa, get quick set and trim of the asymmetrical gennaker...

Thoughts and recommendations appreciated.

Also appreciate ideas about wing and wing with the gennaker. I say DDW the gennaker will work like a genoa and we can use a wisker pole to boot..others say we should keep reaching and gybing instead of DDW course...i know ther are no absolute answers, but would sure appreciate advice from the forum.

Thanks...sailors helping sailors....

Faster 04-08-2011 07:45 PM

I'm sure in a race situation the spinnaker (which ever sort) goes up before you furl/drop the headsail. With a really good set the kite ought to be halfway to the hounds before the mark's past the transom, no?

As far as DDW goes, I think it's too easy to get sucked into the powerful feel of the 'reach' vs the run, and end up sailing more distance than you can make up for in speed. This, though, does depend on true wind speed and the type of boat. I'd think with a standard cruiser/racer like the B411 deeper may well work out better exc in the lightest air.

PCP 04-08-2011 09:26 PM

Don't know much about racing but my boat had a code 0 and a genoa. If there is wind enough there is no problem in setting up the spinnaker wit the genoa because it would fill well, the forces will be less and it would be faster and easier to trim. But if the wind died suddenly and you have very little wind the Genoa can shade the gennaker and make it more difficult to catch wind and more difficult to set.

But normally I do this alone so the easiest way is the way to go for me. With a full crew probably Faster is right and you can overcome any difficulty with more people handling the sail and win a meter or two even with weak wind;)

Regards

Paulo

clancy11 04-08-2011 10:12 PM

Faster,
Appreciate that insight, you are supporting my recommendation to our skipper for our Entry this week in Charleston Race Week...

We locals to Charleston celebrate our Race Week this coming week with 270 boats entered.

We also invite entries into our biennial Charleston to Bermuda Race. A 777 mile jaunt across the stream, looking for the clockwise eddy to help toward the finish line. this year we are off on May 21.

Thanks again for the advice...

paulk 04-09-2011 12:49 AM

If you're racing you certainly don't want a bald-headed sail change, which is what furling the jib first essentially is. We raced once about 120 miles, overnight, and came in second to a Tripp 41 by about 40 seconds. I think it was because we lost about two minutes in a bald-headed headsail change.

chris_gee 04-09-2011 03:54 PM

You can pole out the gennaker. Probably this will be slower, if the boat is not already at hull speed or close. To work out the speed at different angles versus the extra distance you need the polars or plot them yourself that is speed and angle at different wind strengths. Trying it on my boat there is a good speed gain but the effect cancels out with distance rapidly over 30 degrees. You can get the sail filling better ie not sheltered by the main if you let it forward by letting the halyard out a bit. The best angle then is probably about 20 but you need to work it out in practise depending on wind speed and the boat.

Hesper 04-14-2011 04:44 PM

Agree with the comments about a bald-headed sail change - no way in a race. Based on the fleet of J105s that start before me every Wednesday night, I'd say DDW with a gennaker would be a real bust. These guys are smart, competitive racers and they don't usually go anywhere near DDW.

dkobyrne 05-26-2011 12:20 PM

Gennaker pole for beneteau 411
 
Hi,

I have a 411 Celebration and would appreciate information on installation of gennaker pole and spec. The anchor locker gets in the way and fittings may not work with bow roller so very interested in what I need from Selden to make it work and installed.

Appreciate any advise and help on this

Declan

Quote:

Originally Posted by clancy11 (Post 718344)
We are racing a Beneteau 411 and have a gennaker. We have a new selden bow sprit to help improve our sets and trim. Many recommend furling the genoa before setting the gennaker. I am recommending we set the gennaker like we would a spinnaker by hoisting outside the genoa, trimming and then furling the genoa. Others recommend furling the genoa before beginning the gennaker set..I think that takes too long, but the time may not be an issue if we furl the genoa, get quick set and trim of the asymmetrical gennaker...

Thoughts and recommendations appreciated.

Also appreciate ideas about wing and wing with the gennaker. I say DDW the gennaker will work like a genoa and we can use a wisker pole to boot..others say we should keep reaching and gybing instead of DDW course...i know ther are no absolute answers, but would sure appreciate advice from the forum.

Thanks...sailors helping sailors....


clancy11 06-01-2011 04:05 PM

Selden Bowsprit Installation
 
Declan,
I apologize for the delay in replying. We just sailed and won our class in the Charleston to Bermuda Race. We sailed three days straight on a reach with the bowsprit and gennaker. We were sailing with our skipper Bernie Schpiro on Pied-a- Mer, USA 52991.

The Selden install was quite straight forward. We installed a supplied pad eye on the anchor locker hatch door with a small backplate at the maximum distance recommended for the sprit to be extended ( the force there will be down). The sprit clips easily onto the pad eye. We installed the other supplied pad eye on the forward edge of the cabin top where the sprit is stowed while ready for use. We installed a circular ring provided by Selden on the starboard anchor roller bottom plate. We needed a little wedge to level it, we used a plastic block and shaped it. We through bolted the ring and wedge to the bottom plate.

We did have to remove the anchor and stow it in the locker. The sprit is easily removed and stowed on the deck with velcro ties when use of the anchor is needed. We use only the port side of the roller for the anchor as the ring is installed permanently on the other roller.

A tip: make sure you run the tack line through the sprit before securing the ends of the sprit pole.

We did not need a block at the end of the sprit, we tried one and found it worked better without it as the end has a rounded exit for the tack line.

I hope this helps.

nolatom 06-01-2011 04:10 PM

Way to go on the race!

Now you can answer all of our questions. ;-)


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