Nav Rule Question on the Use of Radar on Sailboats - SailNet Community

   Search Sailnet:

 forums  store  


Quick Menu
Forums           
Articles          
Galleries        
Boat Reviews  
Classifieds     
Search SailNet 
Boat Search (new)

Shop the
SailNet Store
Anchor Locker
Boatbuilding & Repair
Charts
Clothing
Electrical
Electronics
Engine
Hatches and Portlights
Interior And Galley
Maintenance
Marine Electronics
Navigation
Other Items
Plumbing and Pumps
Rigging
Safety
Sailing Hardware
Trailer & Watersports
Clearance Items

Advertise Here






Go Back   SailNet Community > Skills and Seamanship > Seamanship & Navigation
 Not a Member? 

Seamanship & Navigation Forum devoted to seamanship and navigation topics, including paper and electronic charting tools.


Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
  #1  
Old 07-06-2011
Triquetra's Avatar
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 61
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Rep Power: 10
Triquetra is on a distinguished road
Nav Rule Question on the Use of Radar on Sailboats

The Nav Rules state, "Every vessel shall maintain a proper look-out by sight and hearing as well as by all available means appropriate in the prevailing circumstances and conditions so as to make a full appraisal of the situation and of the risk of collision."

So, does this mean that the radar has to be kept on whenever underway or just when conditions warrant it? Since the radar is a large draw on the batteries when under sail, it does not seem reasonable to run it during the day, in good visibility, risking having all of the instruments down when they are needed. I would appreciate any clarification from those of you with a lot of experience in this area. Thanks in advance.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #2  
Old 07-06-2011
turbulicity's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Redwood City
Posts: 179
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Rep Power: 4
turbulicity is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by Triquetra View Post
appropriate in the prevailing circumstances
So, no.
__________________
1978 Gulfstar 50'
Clark Sailing Dinghy 10'
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #3  
Old 07-06-2011
jrd22's Avatar
Courtney the Dancer
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: San Juan Islands., WA, USA
Posts: 3,817
Thanks: 3
Thanked 15 Times in 15 Posts
Rep Power: 14
jrd22 will become famous soon enough
I have heard that if you have radar and it's not on it will weigh against you if you are involved in an incident. That doesn't answer your question, but there's a lot of gray area in maritime law.
__________________
John
SV Laurie Anne

1988 Brewer 40 Pilothouse

Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #4  
Old 07-07-2011
svHyLyte's Avatar
Old as Dirt!
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Tampa Bay Area
Posts: 2,692
Thanks: 12
Thanked 102 Times in 97 Posts
Rep Power: 6
svHyLyte is on a distinguished road
I have been sailing for over 50 years on both coasts of the US as well as Mexico and in the Caribbean and in all of that time have never heard of a private yacht being held liable for a collision for want of using a radar. In fact, many of the people I know that have radar really don't know what they're looking at much of the time and wouldn't know how to plot a target if their life depended on it. The folks that seem most knowledgeable about their radar usage all seem to be either ex-military or from areas where there is much fog and reliance on the device is more common.

FWIW...
__________________
"It is not so much for its beauty that the sea makes a claim upon men's hearts, as for that subtle something, that quality of air, that emanation from the waves, that so wonderfully renews a weary spirit."
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #5  
Old 07-07-2011
jackdale's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Calgary, AB, Canada
Posts: 8,857
Thanks: 26
Thanked 36 Times in 33 Posts
Rep Power: 6
jackdale will become famous soon enough
Quote:
Rule 5 does not require the installation of radar, but if radar is installed it must be used whenever it would contribute to the quality of the lookout. What are your obligations if radar is installed on your vessel but is not working properly? Rule 5 does not require that mafunctioning radar be used. If the problem is temporary, such as signal blockage caused by a heavy rainstorm, the use of radar can be suspended but not abandoned.
Rule5.html

There is a much longer explanation on the site.
__________________
__________________
ISPA Yachtmaster Offshore Instructor Evaluator
Sail Canada Advanced Cruising Instructor
IYT Yachtmaster Coastal Instructor
ASA 201, 203, 204, 205, 206, 214
As I sail, I praise God, and care not. (Luke Foxe)
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #6  
Old 07-07-2011
jackdale's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Calgary, AB, Canada
Posts: 8,857
Thanks: 26
Thanked 36 Times in 33 Posts
Rep Power: 6
jackdale will become famous soon enough
Quote:
Originally Posted by jrd22 View Post
I have heard that if you have radar and it's not on it will weigh against you if you are involved in an incident. That doesn't answer your question, but there's a lot of gray area in maritime law.
Too true. When I pose that type of question to my buddies at Transport Canada, the response is usually something love "The courts will decide."
__________________
__________________
ISPA Yachtmaster Offshore Instructor Evaluator
Sail Canada Advanced Cruising Instructor
IYT Yachtmaster Coastal Instructor
ASA 201, 203, 204, 205, 206, 214
As I sail, I praise God, and care not. (Luke Foxe)

Last edited by jackdale; 07-07-2011 at 03:07 PM.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #7  
Old 07-07-2011
DRFerron's Avatar
A mod and her dragon
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: SE Pennsylvania
Posts: 3,905
Thanks: 54
Thanked 133 Times in 123 Posts
Rep Power: 10
DRFerron is on a distinguished road
Radar

Having radar means you should be even more able to prevent a collision so in a way it increases your responsibility as the boat owner.
__________________
Donna


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Catalina 30 TRFK

Contributing Editor
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
magazine

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Rock Hall Cruising Station

All things that are, are equally removed from being nothing. John Donne
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #8  
Old 07-07-2011
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: New Orleans
Posts: 1,865
Thanks: 6
Thanked 23 Times in 21 Posts
Rep Power: 10
nolatom will become famous soon enough
If you failed to see something your radar, if on, would've seen, then you probably haven't lived up to what Rule 5 says about "all means appropriate to the circumstances".

But if you already saw what radar would've told you was out there (the "bright sunny day"), then you didn't need radar to "help", and likely wouldn't be faulted for not having it on, or using if it was on--the collision was caused by factors other than your lookout.

Different situation, though, if it's restricted viz or obstructed view behind your big jenny while you declined to use radar, and the radar would've seen what you didn't.

Note also that Rules 6 (safe speed rule) and 7 (determining risk of collision) have additional requirements for vessels "fitted with radar". So if you have it, you have to use it, or at least take its capabilities into account.

The article Jackdale linked give much more explanation about all this.

Betcha the courts will find the same principle applies, rules or no, about some of the newer stuff, like AIS, to find out who's out there and communicate with them if in doubt.

The lookout rule is vague on specifics for a reason--they don't want you to have your head stuck in a radar scope (at least in the absence of pea-soup fog) to the detriment of a good visual lookout, no vice-versa either. "Lookout" mean listening too, for signals or foghorns. Or for other vessels talking on the radio (if you have radio, which is whole 'nother topic in the same vein as radar). If you have all this stuff and can't effectively use it all by yourself, then you may be judged to have been short-handed if things went south due to incomplete lookout.

Last edited by nolatom; 07-07-2011 at 05:53 PM.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #9  
Old 07-07-2011
DRFerron's Avatar
A mod and her dragon
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: SE Pennsylvania
Posts: 3,905
Thanks: 54
Thanked 133 Times in 123 Posts
Rep Power: 10
DRFerron is on a distinguished road
In the end, everyone is equally responsible for avoiding a collision or an allision (moving object hitting a fixed object). I think the fact that radar is specifically mentioned in the US CFR tells me that if it is installed that a lot of weight is given to it as a means of keeping a lookout. If I was involved in a boating accident, I wouldn't depend on my defense being that I didn't know how to read the radar properly.

Just my opinion.
__________________
Donna


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Catalina 30 TRFK

Contributing Editor
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
magazine

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Rock Hall Cruising Station

All things that are, are equally removed from being nothing. John Donne
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #10  
Old 07-10-2011
Triquetra's Avatar
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 61
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Rep Power: 10
Triquetra is on a distinguished road
I really appreciate the insight of all of you who responded to this, particularly Jackdale's link and nolatom's comment regarding the "vagueness" of the rule. Anytime there is a short, terse rule, I know there are pages of implications behind it. Thank you.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

 
Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may post attachments
You may edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Start rule question different fleets NotQuiteCapnRon Racing 21 11-27-2010 10:39 AM
Dogs on sailboats- long question maureena5 Cruising & Liveaboard Forum 10 10-31-2010 08:58 AM
Sailboats with 2 cabins...a question. BillConnelrs Boat Review and Purchase Forum 42 04-28-2007 09:05 AM
Rule Question please d212 Racing 5 02-03-2007 09:59 AM
Radar Question 1970Columbia34 Gear & Maintenance 31 12-27-2006 10:31 PM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 04:55 AM.

Add to My Yahoo!         
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
SEO by vBSEO 3.6.1
(c) Marine.com LLC 2000-2012

The SailNet.com store is owned and operated by a company independent of the SailNet.com forum. You are now leaving the SailNet forum. Click OK to continue or Cancel to return to the SailNet forum.