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What would you do?

9K views 46 replies 23 participants last post by  drakeParagon 
#1 ·
Ok I think I have the greatest post ever. I was talking to the Captain of the Hinckley 48 Yawl that was caught in the storm Sean trying to take his boat to Saint Martin. He is now safely in Moorehead City, NC.

In the thick of things with 50-60 kt winds, having been knocked down one of his crew took the Epirb and locked himself in the v-bertn. The Captain talked him into opening the door and the crew wanted to set off the epirb. The Captain was trying to talk the crew into handing over the Epirb. The only way he got him to hand it over was under the promise he would set it off which he did. A C-130 later met them and he told them they were OK so they flew off.

What would you do in a situation like this with a panicked crew?
 
#3 · (Edited)
it is tough to say, but there have been alot of posts lately about abandoning boats and crew wanting to get off when the going gets rough. I read and think about what I would do.......So far all I can come up with is as captain you must set very clear guidelines as to who is in charge and explain why before ever leaving the dock with crew you are unfamiliar with or just pick your crew more carefully. I have been hit/stuck in a few unexpected storms...luckily just t-storms on the bay and am fortunate enough to have crew aboard that understood how and why they had to listen to what i needed done and/or wanted. I think it would be very hard for me to go offshore with crew,as the captain of a vessel, that i did not know, trust and obeyed my word when handling the boat.

With that said, I have many years of navy experience and have been trained in damage control. We practiced as we "fight" so to speak and as a repair party team member I had complete faith in our team captain to make the correct decisions were being made. I think all to often inrxperienced sailors go to sea and never expect or prepare(train or even discuss) for the unexpected. however I cannot comment on this particular case.

I think as someone who is willing to set off and EPIRB or call in a MAYDAY has to understand that first and foremost is without doubt 100% absolutely necessary. Once that call is made you have now just put several addition peoples lives in danger to come get you....so it better be because you actually need it!

my .02 ....worth even less!
 
#25 ·
it is tough to say, but there have been alot of posts lately about abandoning boats and crew wanting to get off when the going gets rough. I read and think about what I would do.......So far all I can come up with is as captain you must set very clear guidelines as to who is in charge and explain why before ever leaving the dock with crew you are unfamiliar with or just pick your crew more carefully. I have been hit/stuck in a few unexpected storms...luckily just t-storms on the bay and am fortunate enough to have crew aboard that understood how and why they had to listen to what i needed done and/or wanted. I think it would be very hard for me to go offshore with crew,as the captain of a vessel, that i did not know, trust and obeyed my word when handling the boat.

With that said, I have many years of navy experience and have been trained in damage control. We practiced as we "fight" so to speak and as a repair party team member I had complete faith in our team captain to make the correct decisions were being made. I think all to often inrxperienced sailors go to sea and never expect or prepare(train or even discuss) for the unexpected. however I cannot comment on this particular case.

I think as someone who is willing to set off and EPIRB or call in a MAYDAY has to understand that first and foremost is without doubt 100% absolutely necessary. Once that call is made you have now just put several addition peoples lives in danger to come get you....so it better be because you actually need it!

my .02 ....worth even less!
Well, in Clark Gable movies, all he had to do was give the panicker a couple of sharp slaps. :)
 
#4 ·
That's a tough call, and it sounds like the Captain did the right thing. I'm not certain that you can calm someone who genuinely fears for their life.

Not that he wasn't, but I'd wager that the Captain may be a little more picky about his crew in the future.
 
#5 ·
I imagine what happened is that the Captain got his 'crew' from one of these crewfinder sites and they were 'wannabe' delivery sailors, wannabe ocean sailors, without ever having had any real experience - this was their way of getting some. So the Captain got what he paid for if that was the case. Still, love the way he handled it, it would have been priceless to be a fly on a bulkhead when he sent that C130 off.
 
#6 ·
Maybe there is something in the medicine kit for that.
"Just take this little pill and you will be fine"
 
#9 ·
At first I thought, "Clever". Then I wondered, why bother? He had to take time out of boat management to coax an obviously useless crew out of the safety and out-of-the-wayness of the v-berth. The EPIRB was set off either way. And then he had to call off the rescue, which probably did not win over the heart of the panicked crew.

I suppose it's possible that in the intervening time (between setting off the EPIRB and the flyover) he could have convinced the crew that they didn't need or want rescue, but that wasn't mentioned.

So looks like the options are:

1) Do what the skipper did, and convince the crew after the fact to cancel the rescue. Ideal, since everybody is on board and no backs had to get stabbed.

2) Say to the crew, "Look, I know we don't need rescue. If you set that thing off, I will just cancel the rescue when arrives." And if the seem to be listening to reason, "It would be irresponsible to do otherwise, since a rescue would be dangerous for us, dangerous for the rescuers, costly for me, and costly for the rescuers, and a waste of resources that might be more needed elsewhere." The crew will resent my decision but at least there will be no surprises.

What did they end up doing to handle the storm?
 
#10 ·
Sounds like there may be a market for dummy EPIRBS. "Sure, see, I'm switching it on." ---or--- If you think crew may not get what "CAPTAIN" means, stash the real one so that only you know where it is. Even better, as knots says, go solo so there are no a__holes on board to panic. Get the rules straight: Say, I am responsible for misuse of this thing, my name is on the registration. It does not get switched on unless we are either stepping UP to get into the liferaft or someone needs emer. med. stat or they will die and we are out of radio range. The only reason anyone other than me EVER touches it is if The Captain is the one dying.
 
#11 ·
Sounds like there may be a market for dummy EPIRBS. "Sure, see, I'm switching it on." ---or--- If you think crew may not get what "CAPTAIN" means, stash the real one so that only you know where it is.
I think these are both bad ideas. If I'm unconscious and the boat is taking on water, I want my crew to be able to initiate the emergency procedures in my place.

I don't think any plan that involves lying to your crew is a good one, will be effective, or will foster a good relationship between skipper and crew.
 
#12 ·
To answer the question “what would I do?” I would bill the owner of the offending boat for the false alarm distress call and I would even consider criminal charges. If the skipper wanted to calm everybody’s nerves, why didn’t they make a call on their SSB or SAT phone? At least the tax payers wouldn’t be stuck with a $100k bill for the C130. The other little flaw is once the EPIRB signal is identified as a false alarm, it stops being tracked. So if they had a real emergency later on, they would be Sierra Oscar Lima.
 
#14 ·
Way to go GeorgeB. The reason they did not make a call is because the boat was actually rolled over at the bottom of a swell while going 18 kts out of control thus the crew panic. The cabin was totally trashed all electronics OOC.

They eventually were able to restablish coms using the handheld sat phone. I agree a call to the CG via sat phone would have been a better choice but I wasn't there.
They eventually were routed back across the Gulf Stream and pulled into a Marina in Moorehead City, NC.
 
#18 ·
Really nice video. One of the better videos I've seen of a vessel hove-to in nasty weather (though I didn't hear them say what wind speeds they were seeing), and at one point you can see a sea-anchor rode.

Btw on SA there's a post listing Bella Luna as a Swan 48, not 42.
 
#19 ·
Yep, You are correct, Bella Luna is a Swan 48. Sounds like they just barely made it in to Charleston.
Skipper AJ's Report from Bella Luna

David,
Bella Luna is safe, if not beaten, in Charleston, SC.

What a trip we just had. I thought I would fill in the gaps of our journey.

As you know by the second day Bella Luna a Swan 48 was right up there with Catch 22, Namaste and Avocation. We hove-to as instructed by RealWx and waited to cross stream no earlier than Thursday morning. We watched boats sail by us, and after the 5 pm radio net we got back underway.
Hank and the rest were now a good 60 miles ahead of us. The Stream was no biggie and we headed East, dodging eddies the whole way. We were aiming at Bermuda, 170 degrees under storm jib when the genoa started to get a pocket, up top in a fold. By the time the crew was on deck, 1 min max, it had created an hourglass type pocket 2/3rds up the forestay. Approx 50 sq ft of sail out in 35-45 apparent wind. Waggle'n the rig to all get out. Thought it was gonna come down.

No efforts could un furl, furl, or drop sail. We had to hove to and wait for the rig to fail...
5 hrs later it finally ripped . . . dang kevlar sail . . . a Dacron sail would have popped in 5 mins!
With sail now torn, waggling' stopped.

Now we have drifted to far west to make Bermuda. So we hunkered down and waited, while monsters crashed the deck and fill cockpit . . . drifting at 4-5 kts surfing sideways down waves.
Once we were just north of Bermuda I put on the brakes and launched my Gale Rider, drogue. Now only drifting at 1-2 kts with a good motion.
Sail is still flapping but we are glad it ripped.

We were 86 nm from Bermuda. After seeing the development of Sean, on Garmin XMWeather, we knew we could not make Bermuda and we pulled drogue, and aim for the coast with storm jib alone.

We did 214 nm in 24hrs that day, 175 the next.
We popped out of the massive low and thought we were home free.
Then . . while crossing the stream, with no warning, winds shifted and hit us hard with 30-40 on the nose, mid-stream. What next?

At 2 am we came off a wave so hard it blew the speedo plug out. Within mins, there were were floating floorboards, all systems went off, main breaker tripped.
We hand pumped 2000+gallons of sloshing sea water out of the boat, but the damage was done. Everything, all electronic systems, refer, water maker all out, due to saltwater immersion. Oh, yea the engine died and we had to get towed into Charleston.
Drying boat now.
I have a small amount of video, sorry lost 1 camera.
Will fwd when I can.
AJ
 
#23 · (Edited)
I have wondered about the safety of a roller furling jib in heavy weather. At a minimum, you have greater windage and weight aloft and if it begins to unfurl, you can have a serious problem on your hands.
I have thought about this also. If it happens, you will just need to deal with it. I think the roller safety aspects out weigh a hank on jib safety issues in heavy seas. I think you just need to pick the worse of two evils. Seeing all single handed non stop round the world racing sailors use rollers says a lot for their safety. I think if maintained well, they have excellant reliability record. I would not give up my roller for a hank on. I think I can deal with any failure of the systems that I might encounter. Although I would like to add an inner forestay that I can use with a hank on jib if the roller fails me.
 
#24 ·
Back to the OP...manually setting off an EPIRB is the same as calling a MAYDAY. If you recall your VHF radio training, a MAYDAY is only called when there is immediate danger of losing the vessel (i.e. sinking) or immediate risk of loss of life (eg MOB). You are not supposed to call a MAYDAY or trip an EPIRP because "I have had enough and I want to go home now". The only way you want to abandon your vessel at sea is by stepping UP into the liferaft.
 
#31 ·
Any thru-hull has the potential to pop if she gets slammed that hard. Don't see it as a "design flaw", just a bad weather flaw. Good video too; shows a calm crew and captain and that's what it takes.....along with some luck.

To the OP, it really all depends on the relationship to the crew, as to how I would handle it. There's a lot to be said either way so it's hard to either condemn or praise with the given information. At the end, they made it where they were going safe, that's really all that matters.
 
#32 ·
It seems there is a direct correlation between fishin' stories and sailin' stories. At least it opened a good line of comment for the forum.

Here's how it actually went down. (Not as exciting though)
We had been knocked down twice ,and capsized, in a short period of time.
One crew was injured. It was pretty evident that it was only going to get worse.
The skipper was disconnecting/reinstalling/reconnecting the boat batteries that had been hanging from their wires when we were capsized and were now in a tangle on the salon floor. His knowledge of his boat allowed him to do this quickly. (Note to self: ALWAYS strap those suckers down when offshore.)
A crewmember was helping do this.

Crewmember "You know, this is about the time people usually pop their epirb."
Skipper "You think we should?"
Crew "It seems like the thing to do"
Skipper "OK then, go ahead."
Crew "How do you do it?"
Skipper shows Crew how to activate the epirb and instructs him to activate the second one stored in the forward head.
Skipper tells the Crew to place the epirb in the cockpit so it will have a clear view of the sky.
Helmsman is advised of this action and activates his personal unit.

Two hours later the vessel is miraculously stabilized with two drogues out, sailing barepoled but no longer surfing down the waves. The skipper's knowledge of heavy weather sailing, and the fact that he had the right heavy weather equipment on board saved the boat. A coast guard C130 flys by, ascertains the vessel is making out ok, and advises the name and location of a nearby vessel that can assist if needed. The C130 also tells us to turn off the epirbs. Till then I don't think anyone on the boat knew you could turn them off.
The C130 then proceeds to contact another nearby sailing vessel to check on them.

So, there was no panic by anyone. The skipper authorized the epirb activation, and had two hours to cancel the unit from transmitting. Nobody locked themselves in a cabin. All 3 men on the boat were too busy keeping her afloat.

Not as interesting or controversial, but true nonetheless.
I was there.
 
#41 ·
It seems there is a direct correlation between fishin' stories and sailin' stories. At least it opened a good line of comment for the forum...Not as interesting or controversial, but true nonetheless.
I was there.
So, now that your feet are dry again, do you believe that the EPIRB was activated prematurely and unnecessarily, given that everything turned out fine without any outside help?
 
#36 · (Edited)
I found this: NTech USA - Speedwatch Wireless Knotmeter
No need for hole in hull.

Now that I'm thinking about this I was on a boat coming back from Bermuda that was getting slammed pretty hard and the knot meter popped off. They just had to pop it back on but it was a scare.

Maybe this is not too uncommon.
 
#37 ·
That is a really nice little unit. I have a Polar bike watch that looks suspiciously similar and also is wireless. Am wondering if the Speedwatch sending unit could be used with the watch.

That's pretty scary that you had the same experience with one of these things popping out! They were pretty much standard equipment on boats of late 60s/70s vintage. When you look at the "plug," it's held in by a only a small pin going into plastic. I think I'm going to see if I can perhaps design a backup method of securing the plug to stop it from coming out completely if the pin ever fails. If not, it's getting permanently glued in with epoxy. It's too old to ever get a replacement anyway.
 
#40 ·
Have a couple of GPS units that read out speed over ground. The difference with the more mechanical units such as the old one is that they measure speed through water and are really backups in case you need to go to DR navigation, calculating offsets for current and wind to get a course made good and actually reading a compass. DR instruments make me remember the days of, "Geez, what buoy is that!:eek:
 
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#42 ·
At the time it was the right thing to do. 3 serious events in less than two hours, one crew injured, conditions getting worse. I believe we were all expecting to not have a boat left by the time the Coast Guard arrived.
What solved our dilemma was helm folks paying strict attention to the approaching waves and aligning the boat appropriately. Plus the addition of a second drogue which stopped the surfing action. 100' of manila rope with about 80' of chain, one of these on each primary winch, through the stern chocks.
There was no communications available once we went over. We could have turned the units off once things stabilized, which would have saved the CG a bit of flying time, but they were already enroute. and I'm not sure anyone was aware you could turn the danged things off. Things were kind of busy too, between steering, making up the other drogue, and the mess below, time went by pretty fast.
I'd be interested in talking to Elle's crew and see what their conditions were. Sounds similar, but they proceeded to abandon ship.
Our remaining days at sea were damned uncomfortable, but we did bring her in.
 
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