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The challenge of experience

15K views 38 replies 20 participants last post by  aeventyr60 
#1 ·
Everyone always says to get more experience and it is of course good advise. The problem is that it is not that easy to do.

I know some very experienced sailors who have sailed the same boat from the same marina in the same 20 mile radius for decades. They are obviously experienced but within narrow confines.

The most striking example is a gentleman that asked me to help move his boat from RI to NYC. He explained how he had the boat for three years but just didn't want to move the boat by himself. After about five minutes on the boat I figured out he wasn't really a sailor. He drove from NYC to the boat a couple times a month and was so tired he often just slept overnight on the boat and drive home. His "experience" was probably some motoring and maybe sailing with only the jib up in 8 knots of wind for a total of 4 hours the whole time he owned the boat.

But just how much different are any of us? If you sail in FL, Maine would be a big change. LIS is vastly different from Norway.

The best I've been able to come up with it to purposely put myself in as many varied conditions as possible. Charter in other states when possible. Volunteer for deliveries whenever possible. Go out when the weather is a little more problematic than I would wish.
When conditions are normal I try maneuvers in different ways than I usually do them.

It is always a judgement call. I would prefer to not die, kill someone else, or destroy any property but to call it a challenge it has to have some element of danger.

What do you do to get more real experience or do you play it safe all the time and just have a good time?
 
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#2 ·
What do you do to get more real experience or do you play it safe all the time and just have a good time?
My wife and I keep talking about heading out to Neah Bay one of these summers (instead of Desolation Sound which is our usual trip) and sailing a couple days towards Hawaii and then turning around and sailing back. We keep putting it off though, but I'd like for her to experience it before we put too much more money into the boat for our planned full time cruising retirement.
 
#5 ·
That sounds like a pretty good idea.
There are so many basic firsts with the accompanying challenges.

Watch schedule for 2 days, 4 days, 8 days.
Cooking underway
Cooking in 30k, 40k
30k for 24, 48 hours
40k for 24, 48 hours

All of this stuff is pretty much expected for folks who are crossing oceans but hard for coastal folks to experience.
 
#3 ·
I just started sailing. I live on a smallish lake and have a Cal21 tied to my dock and ready to go at the drop of a hat. I sail all the time and probably have as many hours in the last few months as most do in their first few years...but even though I have played in some pretty stiff breeze, there is little to no fetch here so the thought of big waves, tides, current and open water is daunting.
I like to push the limits though so after a repainting in the spring I will be headed to some of the bigger lakes and the Puget Sound next season. My stomach does flips just thinking about it. :D
 
#4 ·
Nice topic!

I've been on the water for 43 years and know exactly what davidpm is talking about. It's very easy to stay in the comfort zone. I too have done some of what he's done. We basically set sights on a new goal that is achievable and then plan toward it. One year, the Dismal Swamp Canal & Ablemarle Sound looked interesting, another year it was a trip nearly the length of the Bay. In between, it's setting off at sunset for a 15 mile cruise to a new anchorage because I was bored. Just something different whenever the opportunity arose. With more time on the water comes more variety which leads to experience. I'm now confident in me and the boat to sail in wind up to 33-35 kts (sustained) on the Chesapeake Bay and 6' square wave faces.

A few years ago, when our daughter reached teen years and inevitably began to distance herself from the boat, we started racing again, after 20 years. I did it because we were spending too much time tied pierside. I felt that my night skills were atrophying so I entered overnight races. In 4 years of racing, my sail trim skills have improved, I'm far more sensitive to tactics (which translate to more efficient cruising), and the boat operates much more smoothly. We still suck but I'm pushing myself and that's what it's about. Maybe this is too pedestrian for the hard core cruisers, but they can eat my varnish. :)

Next year is Down the Bay Race (135 mi) and soon the Annapolis-Newport race. Maybe travel to the UK for around the Isle of Wight race (if I can find a boat). Gonna happen. :cool:
 
#6 ·
We still suck but I'm pushing myself and that's what it's about. Maybe this is too pedestrian for the hard core cruisers, but they can eat my varnish. :)
Good idea, Racing.
I've done that a few times too.
 
#7 ·
I'm planning a trip to the canyon, 100 miles offshore. It will be the first time I'm really away from land. I plan to stay and fish for awhile and then sail back.

I'm also planning Montauk to Nantucket direct and return. Just need to find the time. So it's little increments for me.

Regards,
Brad
 
#8 ·
And I want to make myself clear. If someone wants to enjoy their boat in some particular way I'm not in any way belittling their choice. It's just a boat and hobby and what ever makes a person happy is what counts.
It is just that years and decades of experience don't necessarily translate when the venue changes.

I remember an experienced delivery captain who turned down a job. I believe it was a long east cost delivery run, something like Florida to Maine.
The owner was a very experienced coastal sailor and wanted to move his boat staying close to shore figuring it was safer. The delivery captain wanted to take a route that gave him more sea room.
The owner tried it himself and lost his boat. Thankfully was rescued. His skills and judgement and or stamina weren't quite enough for that particular trip despite years of experience.
 
#17 ·
I think the old term, coined by merchant ships in the heyday of sailing, for staying close to shore is "coasting," jumping from inlet to inlet up or down the East Coast. The objective is to stay inside the Gulf Stream. It's why the shoreline is littered with sailing ships, especially around the Outer Banks. Even most class A inlets like Ft. Pierce are wicked dangerous, constantly shoaling or just unnavigable with any kind of sea running. I vote for the idea of maintaining enough sea room to ride out a nor'easter hove-to (or stay in the ICW).
 
#11 ·
but to call it a challenge it has to have some element of danger.
I question this comment - a challenge doesn't have to involve danger, it need only involve pushing the envelope of your experience. In fact, I would suggest that if danger is involved, you're pushing a bit too far....incremental keeps the enjoyment in it while adding the spice of challenge, without putting yourself and your boat at risk.
 
#21 · (Edited)
Your not the only one to call into question my use of the word "danger".

I agree it would probably not be wise to purposely go out in hurricane conditions with wind gusts predicted to be 50 knots.
But lets say you are planning on a Bermuda, Islands and beyond trip with your bride, your boat is pretty much ready but you have a few months to go.
The weather is predicting rain and winds to 35 knots and seas 4 to 6 for 8 hours and you or your significant other has never been in that before.
Do you pop out there and bash around for a few hours on your weekend or do you varnish in your basement?
What would you do?

I'm defending my choice of words. Varnishing, at least in the short term, is probably less dangerous than the beat to windward on 35 knots.
I don't think the definition of danger is that you have a 85 percent chance of death.
It's all a judgement call but there is real danger with every decision. Who knows what the real risk is? Is it higher than stepping of a curb.

In fact maybe you shouldn't risk that bash in 35 knots on the weekend because the real danger is that your SO will cancel the big trip if she gets too scared and there was an easy way out. If she had the same experience after three months of cruising and all your stuff was sold she would stick it out and have a good time. Now we are talking danger of a different kind.

Danger don't mean dead, danger means some risk, at least that's the way I was using it.
 
#12 · (Edited)
I think you are very astute. Experience is not the same one repeated over and over.

I guess you have to decide if you want to put yourself outside your comfort zone, then plot and plan and then set a date and go for it. We are in Moreton Bay and there are a few old friends who have seen some of our photos and want to head up the coast. One of these friends has been sailing the Bay for 30yrs, but never out of it and it represents a mental barrier for him. He has the boat and the gear and would be fine - over prepared. So he will sail to Mooloolaba, then to the Wide Bay in tandem with me. After that I will head home after a week or so in the beautiful Tin Can and Hervey Bays.

With yachting, there is usually someone who has genuinely done what you want before and if you can tag along, it reduces any stress, but you are doing it yourself so gaining the required experience.

You can be within vhf distance, even if you are over the horizon.

I am planning a trip to New Caladonia and Vanuatu and may go about the same time as one of the rally's (exactly for the same reasons] - all the benefits without the committments

I think the comments about a need for an element of danger is wrong. Danger is somewhere between real and imaginary. Being outside your comfort zone does not necessarily mean dangerous.

Anyway, its a decision where we sail to and planning and prep reduce possible dramas.
 
#13 ·
David, sailing has enough of its own inbuilt dangers that you don't need to go looking for them. For example on our last coastal passage (70nm) we were promised sub 20knots and a beam reach, instead we got plus 30 hard on the nose. I probably wouldn't have gone out had I known but it wasn't all that bad really, just a tadge uncomfortable.

So although we didn't go looking for it and the trouble was middling rather than really ugly we learned much about us and our boat. Enough to know that we can cope with mid 30s. Of course its also to do with sea state. While we had Force 6 into 7, because the wind was blowing off the land and we never more than around ten nms offshore the sea were not as big as they might have been.

I guess one also learns to read up on local conditions when you leave your home waters. Couple of years back I failed to do so only to run into a common local gale with rain so heavy visibility was only a boat length or so and I had to wear glasses in order to just keep my eyes open. Had I done my homework and given that quite small area a bit more of an offing we would have missed this freakish event altogether or at least bypassed the worst of it.

One thing I do think I know is that while I have far less experience than many here the more I get the better I feel about heading out.
 
#14 ·
A good way to gain more experience is to take at least a week long vacation aboard the boat with a distant destination - say 200 miles or more away. You will gain valuable experience sailing in different waters and learn about living aboard the boat for an extended period of time. If you regularly use your boat in more protected waters like the Chesapeake Bay or LI sound, this longer trip could also involve a coastal hop, where you gain valuable experience sailing in the ocean farther away from land.
 
#15 ·
I think that the common theme that is running here is to do something that you haven't done before. That's the definition of leaving the comfort zone. I also agree that an element of danger does not have to be involved. But to be truthful, psychologically, the perceived possibility of danger, of the unknown is what makes us feel uncomfortable. Reality is another thing.

Regarding racing, one does not have to be hard-core-kevlar to race. Nor do they have to own a Volvo 70 to do it. Local races do an enormous amount to identify deficiencies. I found that while I thought I was a good sailor and knew sail trim, the reality was different. Coming across another boat on the same tack during a daysail does not constitute racing, nor should one gauge one's ability by beating a boat that may or may not have been engaged!
 
#19 ·
David,

Our boat is really close to NYC now, in Port Washington. However, the thought of going through Hells Gate without experienced crew is a bit daunting. (That and making sure I get the tides right.)

When/if the time comes, I plan to call you and Caleb (and maybe put out a general call on SN and AS).

Regards,
Brad
 
#20 ·
I got caught once just past the Tappan Zee and that was disconcerting because it is so narrow and the visibility was about zero, and I knew there was a ship coming my way.
Hell Gate I've done several times and even at max current (going my way) it was a non-event. This was all with little 10HP boats so your big powerful boat will sail through so nicely I'll bet you wouldn't even look up from your viewfinder.

I'll steer you take pictures.
 
#22 ·
Out of curiosity, what is so intimidating about Hell Gate? I have looked at the current tables and videos. Videos seldom show the true picture.

Out west I will go though a pass at 3 knots or less, although slack is prefered. Our worst is probably Skookumchuk Rapids at 16.5 knots; I have not been through there. Our busiest is Dodd Narrows which runs 8.5 knots; that I do at or near slack. It is about 75 meters wide.
 
#28 ·
I think a big part is the name. There can often be some very large traffic and once we took it the same time as a tug pushing a double barge.
The combination of narrow, curving big traffic and just enough current so if you catch it wrong and have a small boat you can get stuck and not make it.

Another possibility is that the ebb current flow one way in the sound and the other way in NY I suspect that some very crazy water can happen under certain conditions. But I have not experience anything other than traffic and the current. In Plum Gut I have heard of certain storms creating a wall of water that just sweeps over whatever is in it's path like a monster wave.

Also in the Sound we are used to 2 knots or less. So The Race, Plum Gut, and Hell Gate are all issues for us especially if you only have 10 horse.

So obviously you guys are used to much more action. Proving my point that experience one place may not prepare one for someplace else.

So I have a question for you. At 8 to 16 knots if the tide is going your way and you have a boat that can motor at 4 knots can you control the boat or do you have to wait for slack?
 
#24 ·
We seem to have hit a bit of a wall lately.

We've been cruising the inside waters to Desolation Sound for decades, have made the trip to Barkley Sound, have island hopped the Caribbean from Grenada to St Martin over several trips, and experienced a small slice of Mexico's Gold coast. Way back as a newbie I signed on for a delivery to SF from Victoria, interesting trip with lots of issues and delays and ended up flying home from Eureka CA.

I grew up on BC's central coast, a remote area with some fertile cruising grounds, much of which is fondly remembered from childhood.. but we have yet to make that trek. In fact despite plans to break the barrier into the Broughtons last summer we were stymied there too. A large factor is my wife's reluctance (read phobia) for rapids and tidal gates. The thought alone of getting through all the gates to Johnstone strait gives her fits. On top of that the high probability of fog, rain, cloud and cool makes it a very hard sell.

Still, it beckons and it could be that I'll take the boat up there and she can join us later by plane one day. So called Fiordland is a place I worked in as a teen and would love to see again.

Haida Gwai is another 'dream' destination, this time involving a crossing of Hecate Strait.

I think it simply takes determination and desire.. we know a couple vastly less 'experienced' than ourselves who successfully cruised to Prince Rupert and back this summer - kudos to them.

One thing that may help is to invite experienced crew to join you, or to 'buddy boat' with someone who's 'been there' as a way to break the ice, so to speak. The confidence and security of that plan is often enough to make it happen the first time.
 
#26 ·
One thing that may help is to invite experienced crew to join you, or to 'buddy boat' with someone who's 'been there' as a way to break the ice, so to speak. The confidence and security of that plan is often enough to make it happen the first time.
I will probably be going around in July (dates to be confirmed). I could meet up you in the Desolation area and you could follow us through. The hard part is the Yucultas going north as it can only be done once per day. Southbound has two opportunities per day.

Dreamspeaker and Sailing Directions both have good instructions. I posted a chart in another posting.

Or do a starter pass run. Go though Hole in the wall and spend a day or two at Octopus Islands, then go through Beazley Pass to get back into the Strait. Head down to Heriot Bay or Gorge Harbour for a celebratory dinner. Or vice versa and go into Desolation.

If anyone else might want to tag along, let me know.

Jack
 
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#25 ·
Sure, it is a good idea to get experience in challenging conditions. On the other hand, once we got to the islands from Chesapeake Bay (which was kind of exciting in parts) we always were sailing in better than average conditions. Why? Because if the wind was too high we simply stayed put. Why go out and be uncomfortable if you dont have to? Leave a different day or pick a different direction.

However, what conditions I am comfortable with are very different now that I have done a fair amount of open ocean sailing- I remember I used to be very nervous about winds in the mid to high 20's whereas now I would consider that a great day to go sailing. So widening the comfort zone is a good thing.
 
#27 ·
Appreciate that Jack.. will see about that when the time approaches, our summer plans are not yet firmed up (may involve Nova Scotia! :eek: - so many places, so little time!)

It would be great to go through that way.. I'll start the 'sales job' on you-know-who right away!;)
 
#29 · (Edited)
At 8 to 16 knots if the tide is going your way and you have a boat that can motor at 4 knots can you control the boat or do you have to wait for slack?
Yes, you have control, but you might get pushed around a bit.

I've watched Skookumchuck Narrows running on a big spring tide, and while I wouldn't take my boat through there when it was running, I'd take someone else's boat, just to give it a try. We do Dodd, Deception and Malibu when it's running with us.

Skookumchuck is just amazing though

 
#34 ·
Even more interesting is when the current suddenly increases big time. Until the boat catches up to the change, the rudder can actually works as in reverse.This will usually happen in a narrow channel between the rocks .ie ,Hidden basin,Roaring Hole, Surge N. Probably lots of other spots I haven"t yawed through yet. Hell with the waves, Rock are bad.
 
#37 ·
As a high school teacher I had the luxury of long summer vacations if i was not doing summer school of some sort. Experience came with going longer distances. I remember my first cruise in our Hughes 22. Went from Whitby to the Thousand Islands in Lake Ontario. Got to Belleville and found out that you needed a few dock lines that were longer than 15', so a lot of it is just increasing the challenge step by step.

For cruisers on Lake Ontario, after you have done the standard trips (across the lake 20 to 50 miles depending on route, going to the Thousand Islands); the next step is to leave the lake and head, typically, toward the North Channel in Georgian Bay - this was tougher because you had to deal with the Welland Canal, long trips on Erie and Huron, and river currents against you between Erie and Huron. The next step was to go into the ocean. We went to a Nonsuch regatta on Martha's Vineyard (Erie Canal with mast down, Hell's Gate tides!!). Next was offshore, in our club there was a bit of a tradition of going to Bermuda for a summer trip (2 weeks to Bermuda, 2 weeks in Bermuda and 2 weeks back). At each stage there was a new challenge and more things to learn. Most people on Lake Ontario never leave it and are happy to do the same things each summer, but other options - in logical steps exist if you want them. I guess I was always building experience but very importantly you are building confidence to tackle something new.

Now we are aiming to go from Australia around South Africa and there are new challenges and experiences including longer passages in the Indian and Atlantic Oceans and the nasty weather from SW Indian Ocean around the Cape of Good Hope. I feel OK about it because I have met other challenges in the past that seemed just as big a step as these ones.
 
#39 ·
One of our training cruises was out the Juan de Fuca Stratis and up to Barclay Sound. Fantastic trip, a bit rough on the way out but a big reward in cruising Barclay Sound. The next year we circumnavigated Vancouver Island and then headed off shore to San Francisco. Small steps on the way to Asia 12 years later. Go for it!
 
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