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Go Back   SailNet Community > Skills and Seamanship > Seamanship & Navigation
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Seamanship & Navigation Forum devoted to seamanship and navigation topics, including paper and electronic charting tools.


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  #21  
Old 02-05-2012
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So, how much would it cost to remove that Alcatraz Island hazard from the Bay?
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  #22  
Old 02-05-2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rgscpat View Post
So, how much would it cost to remove that Alcatraz Island hazard from the Bay?
As I remember, it was fairly easy to see and probably shows up somewhat on radar. Also, a lot of tourist revenue would be lost

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  #23  
Old 02-05-2012
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Alcatraz is rather handy to hide in the lee of, when your jib has wrapped twice around the forestay and it's blowing a gale and you need to get out of the wind to sort it out.
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  #24  
Old 02-06-2012
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Hope you

Quote:
Originally Posted by rgscpat View Post
So, how much would it cost to remove that Alcatraz Island hazard from the Bay?
I'm hoping this is supposed to be funny, so I'll say: About 1/16 of what it would cost to remove the Angel Island hazard!
In case I'm wrong and you are serious : As you will see if you consult a chart, shipping lanes go around these highly visible "hazards" as opposed to the two in the OP which sit IN a shipping lane, and happen to be submerged.
Wait a minute.....Were you the Pilot on the Cosco Busan?

Last edited by L124C; 02-06-2012 at 01:45 AM.
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  #25  
Old 02-06-2012
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Originally Posted by L124C View Post
I'm hoping this is supposed to be funny, so I'll say: About 1/16 of what it would cost to remove the Angel Island hazard!
In case I'm wrong and you are serious : As you will see if you consult a chart, shipping lanes go around these highly visible "hazards" as opposed to the two in the OP which sit IN a shipping lane, and happen to be submerged.
Wait a minute.....Were you the Pilot on the Cosco Busan?
We fished for many years in the Seymour Narrows area near Campbell River, BC . It makes SF Bay look like a mill pond, current wise. Here is an interesting story about the destruction of ripple rock and related costs, so it can be done.

Ripple Rock Explosion, Vancouver Island

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  #26  
Old 02-06-2012
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Thats amazing!

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Originally Posted by dabnis View Post
We fished for many years in the Seymour Narrows area near Campbell River, BC . It makes SF Bay look like a mill pond, current wise. Here is an interesting story about the destruction of ripple rock and related costs, so it can be done.

Ripple Rock Explosion, Vancouver Island

Dabnis
It confirms that where there is a will, there is a way!
I certainly would not have guessed it would be that difficult. I would have thought they could have performed the work in increments, during various slack tides. Obviously...I'm wrong! It's also interesting that it took 119 vessels and 114 lives lost to develop the will.
Thanks for that!
Here is an original article regarding blowing up Blossom Rock. Unfortunately, because it is a copy of the original, published in 1870, it's a little difficult to read. However, I found it interesting in several respects.
http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive...8ED85F448784F9

Last edited by L124C; 02-06-2012 at 03:39 PM.
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It confirms that where there is a will, there is a way!
I certainly would not have guessed it would be that difficult. I would have thought they could have performed the work in increments, during various slack tides. Obviously...I'm wrong! It's also interesting that it took 119 vessels and 114 lives lost to develop the will.
Thanks for that!
Here is an original article regarding blowing up Blossom Rock. Unfortunately, because it is a copy of the original, published in 1870, it's a little difficult to read. However, I found it interesting in several respects.
BLOSSOM ROCK. - Description of the Rock and the Preparatory Work for Blasting it --A Charge of Twenty-three Tons of Powder--The Explosion. - View Article - NYTimes.com
Yes, very interesting, amazing they could do it that long ago. I would think that a barge with a drilling rig could pre drill a lot of deep holes that divers could fill at slack water with explosives. Or maybe a big dredge equipped with a large sharp cutting head could chew it away? As mentioned earlier probably nothing will be done until a big tanker gets a little off course and dumps millions of gallons of oil into the bay.

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  #28  
Old 02-07-2012
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L124C

If you want the rocks removed, you have a lot of work to do.

Funding will be an appropriations bill sponsored by congresspersons in districts effected by the navigation hazard, at least one senator, and other state and local political entities.

You will also need economic and environmental impact studies; what economic return will the rock removal produce?

And expect various groups to oppose the plan in court; questioning the economic value of the work or environmental issues.

The Army Corp will be starting the process of approval for removing a rock ledge in the Delaware shipping channel near Marcus Hook this year. Opposition groups will also be preparing court challenges.
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  #29  
Old 02-08-2012
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Originally Posted by Ulladh View Post
L124C
If you want the rocks removed, you have a lot of work to do.

Funding will be an appropriations bill sponsored by congresspersons in districts effected by the navigation hazard, at least one senator, and other state and local political entities.
You will also need economic and environmental impact studies; what economic return will the rock removal produce?
And expect various groups to oppose the plan in court; questioning the economic value of the work or environmental issues.
Well said. Maybe they are waiting for a vessel to hit the rocks. No EIR required in advance of that event, and then it would probably be a lot easier to fast track the project! Again...reactive, not proactive!
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Old 02-14-2012
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Just saw another report on the Cosco Busan incident. I-Team reveals exclusive audio recordings of Cosco Busan oil spill | abc7news.com
The Coast Guard officers that responded were looking for oil to the North of the ship (toward the Golden Gate and ocean). Since the accident occurred on a flood tide, the oil went South of the leaking ship. I mean, I know hindsight is 20/20, but if you are in the frigging Coast Guard, you should be able to figure out that the oil is going to go with the tide! So, the CG initially didn't even know fuel was leaking until well over an hour after the incident. Even then they estimated that only 150 gallons of fuel leaked. In fact the leak consisted of over 53,000 Gallons of bunker fuel!
The Pilot made $450,000 that year, didn't even know where the bridge was in his own bay, and simply chuckles every time he talks about hitting it (listen to the audio tapes)! In response, they bought the Pilots new laptop chart plotters (as if the two radars, GPS and a paper chart shouldn't have been enough for a Harbor Pilot to navigate with!). BTW...The ship owner paid a Ten Million Dollar Fine and Forty Four Million in clean up fees. Who pays that in the long run?
So...do I have faith that the powers that be are making the right choices regarding the rocks, or that pilots will avoid them? In a word....No!

Last edited by L124C; 02-14-2012 at 01:54 AM.
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