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Go Back   SailNet Community > Skills and Seamanship > Seamanship & Navigation
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Seamanship & Navigation Forum devoted to seamanship and navigation topics, including paper and electronic charting tools.


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  #31  
Old 07-24-2012
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Re: Let's talk about anchors some more

Quote:
Originally Posted by Capt.aaron View Post
... centinal ...
Sentinel. Also called a kellet. See Tuning an Anchor Rode and specifically Rode - Static Behavior . Not nearly as effective as a properly sized anchor although it does offer some marginal benefit in high winds if close to the anchor and in light winds if a bit more than depth of water from the bow roller.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Capt.aaron View Post
A. drop the hook while still moving forward
At the risk of nitpicking, in light air dropping the hook while underway downwind may be the most effective way to set the anchor IF one uses the technique you described elsewhere of running the rode out far enough before snubbing (avoiding piling rode up on the bottom).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff_H View Post
When I began to evaluate the so-called 'next generation anchors', I found that they had to be wildly heavier than the anchors that I had been using. I concluded that if they need that much weight to generate adequate holding for a boat of my boat's size and weight, it seemed like these newer designed anchors must be a comparatively inefficient designs compared to the WW II era designs that I currently use.
My perspective is different: the fluke anchors (notably Fortress and Danforth) allow the use of much lighter anchors than other designs. Fluke anchors have great holding power, especially when evaluated as holding/unit anchor weight. Their downside is mediocre resetting in areas with significant reversals in wind or current. That isn't an issue in the Chesapeake. In New England, Savannah, Beaufort NC and much of the rest of the sailing world it is a factor.

You're welcome to borrow my spare Rocna but without a windlass I think you might sue me for back injury. *grin*
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  #32  
Old 07-24-2012
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Re: Let's talk about anchors some more

eye new eye wuz speling sentinal rong! Anchoring while moving down wind is o.k. if you know you are doing it and why.
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Last edited by Capt.aaron; 07-24-2012 at 04:09 PM.
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  #33  
Old 07-24-2012
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Re: Let's talk about anchors some more

Quote:
Originally Posted by SVAuspicious View Post
My perspective is different: the fluke anchors (notably Fortress and Danforth) allow the use of much lighter anchors than other designs. Fluke anchors have great holding power, especially when evaluated as holding/unit anchor weight. Their downside is mediocre resetting in areas with significant reversals in wind or current. That isn't an issue in the Chesapeake. In New England, Savannah, Beaufort NC and much of the rest of the sailing world it is a factor.

You're welcome to borrow my spare Rocna but without a windlass I think you might sue me for back injury. *grin*
I agree entirely that fluke anchors are at their best in a venue like the Chesapeake and bottom conditions like mud or sand, where they can sink their flukes into something moderately solid. That was why I was thinking in terms of a composite (alum/steel) anchor. I think that the reset issues can be designed around which is why I think the roll bar makes sense.

The offer on the Rocna is very generous, and made me smile, but thinking of me hauling it up by myself in a breeze, reminds me of the old New Jersey (land of my youth) wisecrack, "Yeah, You 'n'whadahmy!" (which is Northern 1960's Jersey-ese for 'you and what army').

Jeff
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  #34  
Old 07-24-2012
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Re: Let's talk about anchors some more

Jeff - I have two Rocna 25s (55#s). You're welcome to try one anytime I'm not out cruising. I don't worry about a secondary anchor much around the Bay.

It's not just the weight of anchor and chain - it's the break-out force, and all the mud that comes up with the anchor.

For the plow and spoon (new generation anchors from Rocna, Manson, Spade, and Raya) weight is good. The setting performance of the Spade aluminum and steel models makes that pretty clear.

Even with two big anchors and a lot of chain forward Auspicious sits above her design lines forward so I don't worry much about weight forward. Even in cruising mode (I use the v-berth for storage) we're about 3" clear of Frer's lines forward. Only 1" aft.

On topic, I'm very impressed with the new generation anchors. I have a lot of personal experience with CQR, Bruce, Delta, Fortress, Rocna, and Spade.

For my use profile, Rocna/Spade are definitely the way to go for holding the boat. I use a small Fortress for the dinghy.
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  #35  
Old 07-24-2012
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Re: Let's talk about anchors some more

You asked for some discussion, so...

I want to have a primary anchor that will hold my boat securely in 90% of the situations that I'm ever going to see. And then a secondary anchor that I can add for that other 10% of situations. I wouldn't second-guess anyone who also wants to carry a lunch hook, and a reasonably sized stern anchor. More than that, though, and I think you are carrying a lot of weight that adds no practical benefit.

No offense, but unless your 28-footer is WAAAAY more heavy than the average 28-footer, I think a 50 lbs. anchor is too much. A 30 or 35 lbs. anchor would be a lot easier to manage, and would hold your boat in any reasonable anchorage, even in very high winds. An additional 20 lbs. anchor that you could use for extreme conditions, or as a stern anchor when you wanted one, would cover it all. And, frankly, even these numbers are a bit on the high side--for most 28' boats a 25 lbs. primary and 15 lbs. secondary would be plenty.

But that's just my opinion. It is obvious that you are comfortable with the way you are doing things and will not change your mind. That's fine. You're welcome to carry all the anchor that you want, and I will carry all the anchor that I want.
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  #36  
Old 07-24-2012
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Re: Let's talk about anchors some more

Denverdon,
Certainly... My 28 footer was built in '65. It's a bit heavier. I don't think there is such a thing as too big, only too small. Well, too big to carry of course. If a 35 is good enough, why not add 15 pounds and make it more than enough. From 1978 to 1994 the boat sailed with 2, 35 pound anchors and a boat length of chain on each. It was good enough most of the time, but that's not good enough. I keep an anchor ready for quick deploy in a cockpit laz. That's my (OH SH!T) anchor. The 70 pound storm anchor stowed low in the aft laz is my boat insurance. I've been so glad I had that thing on several occasions. ( Huricane Gorges for example) The boat has been anchored out 90% of the time since 1990 in many countries and conditions. I like to be ready for the worst and hope for the best. My boat has nothing on it, no inboard, nothing but light weight wood interior, nothing stowed above the water line. I have room to add the weight of something as crucial as ground tackle. I wrote earlier what I did to a 25 pound anchor. The coast gaurd read somewhere that 25 pounds was sufficiant, I bent that thing like it was butter. I've bent a few 35 danforths as well. When a big blow is coming and I dump that 70 pounder in the drink, I laugh. I've had people around when I do it and when they see it splash, it all makes sense. One time in Belize we were preparing for a 3 day inland expedition with some fellow cruisers and when they saw me pull that thing out they were more than envious of the peace of mind I would have. Kind of like Crockadile Dundee, "that's not a knife, THIS is a knife."
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Last edited by Capt.aaron; 07-24-2012 at 08:29 PM.
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  #37  
Old 07-25-2012
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Re: Let's talk about anchors some more

Lets see, I just bought a 9 lb lewmar fast set with 5' of 3/8" bbb chain, 200' of 7/16" 3 strand for a 6500 lb, 28' on deck boat, 25' WL 29.5' OAL........ betcha the captn will be liken that setup!

BUT, if one wants to disCUSS anchors and types, one also need to disCUSS the conditions they will set in, ie soil below, winds, protection etc. If I was going to be in a Hurricane, ie 60-80 knots of wind, "NO" I would not use the above anchor pkg. But for winds under 20 knots, when racing, wind might die, one needs and anchor to keep the current from grounding you out, it will work just fine. It will also work to slow you down while you bring up a bigger anchor from below. IE it also meets the local min anchor at ready race specs. Which is (LOA/17)cubed, or about 5.5 lbs in my case. Total pkg is (LOA squared/80) or 11.25 lbs........some of the class's require a 2nd anchor equal to or bigger than the one always at the ready on the bow.

So with this in mind, yes I do have a 7.5KG bruce, with 15' of 1/4 chain, toying with going to a 10Kg and 25-30' of 5/16" as my overnight weekend setup, with 250 or so feet of 5/8" 3 strand. ALong with, I would not dare to anchor in 15' of water, I might only be in 1' of water over the next 6-7 hours! Depending upon where in the tide you are, ie high or low, you need to know what the other will do, ie if a 12' current high is going on, the next LOW is -4, which happens around here in the puget sound.......you're grounded if you start in 15'! an hour or two or three ago!

30' is the lowest I would anchor in frankly around here, just so I have at least 15' at LOW tide!

Not that I am trying to say that aaron is wrong or right......if he does has to deal with hurricanes, then I can see having a BIG anchor for those times. I would probably do as Jeff, get a BIG alum fortress or equal, appropriate chain length and size for the conditions I would do. Otherwise, not sure a danforth where I am is my cup o tea! I'll take a claw/bruce/spade style for around here, which is the most popular, not to say danforth are not popular........

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  #38  
Old 07-25-2012
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Re: Let's talk about anchors some more

I have a 3 foot tide tops. If I were to race, I'd probably take all but my dingy anchor off the boat, but the only thing I race is the weather. ( secretly my own time when I sail to Honduras.) For me it's about options for extended cruising. I don't know where I'm going to be, or what the weather is going to be in six months, a thousand miles from here, so best be prepaird and have ground tackle for any and all. If I have to anhcor on a rock bottom in 45 feet of water, I can do that. If I need to anchor in a shallow mudy un-protected lagoon, I'm ready. If the storm of the century is coming and I need to duck into some harbour in the middle of no where (That happend, I ran for Fort Jeferson, and it blew 100+), bring it, I've got the tackle on board and if you are near me and worried you don't have the right stuff, well, you can borrow some of mine becuase I have enough for a another boat. Proper prior planning prevents p.p.p.....I just like to be ready to protect my boat, my self and crew, if I have any, and help out the guy anchored next me ( from dragging in to me, as I've done many times in the past.
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Last edited by Capt.aaron; 07-27-2012 at 11:06 PM.
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  #39  
Old 07-25-2012
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Re: Let's talk about anchors some more

Quote:
Originally Posted by Capt.aaron View Post
If a 35 is good enough, why not add 15 pounds and make it more than enough.
Because it is extra weight that makes the anchor more expensive and more difficult to handle. If there is no upside to the extra weight then it is pointless and foolish to accept the downside.

But hey! If a 50 lbs. anchor is good then a 150 lbs. anchor should be even better. And if a 150 lbs. anchor is even better then why stop there? Get yourself a 30-ton surplus navy anchor off of an aircraft carrier. I'm pretty sure that would make a perfect lunch hook for your little sailboat!
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  #40  
Old 07-25-2012
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Re: Let's talk about anchors some more

I don't think 15 extra pounds is more difficult to deal with, but it's holding power is quite a bit better.. I don't think 15 pounds adds any weight of signifigance to the stability of the vessel. I do know it's foolish not to have enough ground tackle at my disposal. When I've been blown in and hunkerd down in some anchorage 100 miles from no where, I've been more than happy that I've had a good selection of anchors to deploy. My boat is on the hook right now in a protected creek in the Fla. Keys, and I'm sitting on 2, 150 pound home made anchors, I added the second because I was pulling the one 150 pounder around a little in strong blow's, It's a hard bottom so the holding isn't great.
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