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Go Back   SailNet Community > Skills and Seamanship > Seamanship & Navigation
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Seamanship & Navigation Forum devoted to seamanship and navigation topics, including paper and electronic charting tools.


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  #51  
Old 07-26-2012
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Re: Let's talk about anchors some more

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Originally Posted by deniseO30 View Post
my arms ache just reading this thread Captain!
Mine to, Anybody selling a used windless out there?!
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  #52  
Old 07-26-2012
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Re: Let's talk about anchors some more

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Originally Posted by SVAuspicious View Post
My perspective is different: the fluke anchors (notably Fortress and Danforth) allow the use of much lighter anchors than other designs. Fluke anchors have great holding power, especially when evaluated as holding/unit anchor weight. Their downside is mediocre resetting in areas with significant reversals in wind or current. That isn't an issue in the Chesapeake. In New England, Savannah, Beaufort NC and much of the rest of the sailing world it is a factor.

BINGO!!!! We almost lost our boat to a fluke anchor as have many of my customers and friends. Maine and the Maritimes are a very poor location for fluke anchors.

Most recently were my friends who have a J Boat and like "light". They swore by their Fortress. I kept telling them what would eventually happen, and they held firm, well, last fall it did happen. The Foirtress un-set and failed to reset.

They now have an aluminum Spade and are horrified at the performance difference, in that the Spade performs as they put it "miles better".... It is only a few pounds more than their Fortress was....

I still love my Fortress but will never again use it as a primary bow anchor...

Oh and I like anchors, as many here know, so just purchased a Mantus two days ago.... One more in the quiver.....

In order for a CQR to be "oversized" enough for me it would need to weigh about what my granite mooring does.....

Of course this is a typical overnight for us and we prefer an anchor that can re-set on its own without the need to be "coaxed" into setting and takes two, three, four or five + tries to make it set........
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Last edited by Maine Sail; 07-26-2012 at 12:50 PM.
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  #53  
Old 07-26-2012
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Re: Let's talk about anchors some more

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Originally Posted by Maine Sail View Post
BINGO!!!! We almost lost our boat to a fluke anchor as have many of my customers and friends. Maine and the Maritimes are a very poor location for fluke anchors.

Most recently were my friends who have a J Boat and like "light". They swore by their Fortress. I kept telling them what would eventually happen, and they held firm, well, last fall it did happen. The Foirtress un-set and failed to reset.

They now have an aluminum Spade and are horrified at the performance difference, in that the Spade performs as they put it "miles better".... It is only a few pounds more than their Fortress was....

I still love my Fortress but will never again use it as a primary bow anchor...

Oh and I like anchors, as many here know, so just purchased a Mantus two days ago.... One more in the quiver.....

In order for a CQR to be "oversized" enough for me it would need to weigh about what my granite mooring does.....

Of course this is a typical overnight for us and we prefer an anchor that can re-set on its own without the need to be "coaxed" into setting and takes two, three, four or five + tries to make it set........
WOW, I see what you mean. Down here we switch direction once in the middle of night when the tide changes. We set two anchors, one in each of the two directions we'll be faceing. That's why for extended cruising I have an anchor for every occasion. In the trades the wind is east or north. It will clock around just before a norther but they don't sneak up on you. Usualy (90%), I'm anchored in thelasia (turtle grass) Fluke anchors love it and my 50 pound CQR and 100 feet of 5/8 chain has never failed my little 28 footer. If I have any doubt, I drop the 70 pound Danforth. it's been that way pretty much 365 day's a year for over 20 years, minus dry dock time and the year I spent a Miami beach marina. If I ever get up to Maine, I'll be sure to bring a fast re-set type like you suggested. But I'm already in paradise so It's doubtful I will, I have alway's kind of wanted to head north for a summer however. it's easy for a cold water sailor to beacome a warm water lover, but hard for us spoiled by the climate to leave.
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Last edited by Capt.aaron; 07-26-2012 at 07:16 PM.
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  #54  
Old 07-26-2012
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Re: Let's talk about anchors some more

The problem I see with the Mantus people is they are trying to tell me that a boat my size should use 1/4 inch chain and I know from actual experience I can seperate the links on a 1/4 inch chain with not much force. It's dog chain. How can I belive any thing else they say when right off the bat there putting me in a perilous situation. Plus, in my experience, if an anchor does not have a hingeing, toggle action it will un-set if any kind of a sea rolls in, so I guess it's good that they re-set them selfs. I'm open to trying one out, But I've spent a lot of time diving and watching anchors while they are being put to the test of high winds and choppy wave action, bruce, claws and such will wiggle loose or become a clump of what ever it's in like mud, as where flukes will stay dug as the arm rises and falls. I guess it's old school vs. new. New is lighter, easier and old is tough and heavy and maybe takes some initial skill and technique to set, but that's seamanship. To me the CQR is new and it took me a while to except those. A Danforth for heavy weather good holding and in my experience will reset and a good old fisherman for rock ledge type anchoring. The CQR is a kind of hybrid to me and coupled with a good length of heavy chain is a good every day anchor. If you anchor out occasionally it's an "overnight" but for those of us who live out there year round it's an "everynight"
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Last edited by Capt.aaron; 07-26-2012 at 10:54 PM.
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Old 07-27-2012
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Re: Let's talk about anchors some more

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Originally Posted by BarryL View Post
Wow,

That's a lot of anchors and what sounds like a lot of work. I supposed that if you will be anchored over night it's the right thing to do and I'm sure you sleep better because of it.

On my current boat (O'day 35) I used to carry a 33 lb claw with 30' of chain and a 30 lb danforth with 10' of chain. Both were on the bow, the danforth in the anchor locker and the claw on deck or on the roller. Then, I realized that in 5+ years I've been sailing this boat, that I have spent a total of 2 nights at anchor. So this year I took the claw (with the chain and rode) home and just have the danforth in the locker. The boat sails better and so far I have anchored 3 times for a total of about 2 hours.

If I go somewhere where I think I'll be anchored out (not likely) I'll bring the claw back on board.

Most of my anchoring is to stop for lunch and a swim. This will be in protected water, in fair weather, for a relatively short time.

Barry
I'm refering back to this post because it seems to be a common thought process. "Well, I seldom anchor and the weather should be good and my engine has never failed so I'll leave my spare at home"
The moment you leave a dock, you need to be able to anchor in a hury, especially in tight, confined areas, That engine dies for what ever reason you need to deploy, and if for some reason that first anchor doesn't catch you need to toss out a second and quick. " it wasn't suposed to blow like this today, and here I am with a dead engine on a lee shore with nothing but a lunch hook." Back to the 7 P's. And though sometimes we plan a 3 hour tour, it could very well turn in to an "overnighter" untill a tow can get to you.
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Old 07-27-2012
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Re: Let's talk about anchors some more

As I posted elsewhere, it is our firm contention that a properly set and well-buried Fortress anchor, with its two massive precision-machined and sharpened flukes, is not more likely to break free from a sea bottom during a wind or tidal shift than other anchor types, particularly those with far less surface / resistance area.

This contention is based upon the opinion of a 40+ year US Navy soil mechanics and anchor design expert, the 25 years of testimonials we have heard from Fortress owners all over the world, particularly from those in our hurricane region and "backyard" here in south Florida, as well as from independent test results.

One such independent test was done by the Sailing Foundation, in which they conducted straight, then 90°, and finally 180° pulls on the anchors tested. A 24 lb Fortress model FX-37 held to the maximum of 4,000+ lbs in the three pull directions, and no other much heavier steel anchor (i.e. Bruce, CQR, Davis, Delta, Luke, Max) was close.

All of that noted, we will readily acknowledge that sailboats oftentimes do not have the engine power to back down hard enough on the more massive Fortress anchor to bury it deeply, and therein lies a key issue in how it performs (or not) during off-center loads.

Here's an interesting comment from the Sailing Foundation test which illustrates this point:

The Fortress set so deep that the rode had to be hauled in to 1:1 and significant power applied to rode by the 83,000-pound tug to break it free. It is doubtful that a sailboat would have windlass power to break it out. Perhaps large primary winches or a rising tide might be adequate. However, it is also doubtful that a sailboat could have set the anchor that deep in less than a full hurricane.

Our company founder/owner, who was a lifelong and very adventurous boater with a 1,000 mile trip up the Amazon River, several Atlantic crossings, and a circumnavigation on his resume, said that "once an anchor breaks free from a sea bottom, it is oftentimes no longer an anchor....it is a massive ball with no remaining sharp edges in which to re-penetrate into the sea bottom".....and in this circumstance, re-setting is not possible.

This is one of the reasons why we note in our "Safe Anchoring Guide" literature that if you are expecting a wind or tidal shift, its a good idea to set two anchors for maximum safety.

Otherwise, a large heavy plow type might serve your sailboat better.

Safe anchoring,
Brian Sheehan

Fortress Marine Anchors
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Last edited by BrianFortress; 07-27-2012 at 11:52 AM.
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  #57  
Old 07-27-2012
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Re: Let's talk about anchors some more

Once again, The problem I have with the fortress people is they are telling me to use 1/4 inch chain for my boat size. I almost take that kind of mis-information pesonally. how can you anchor quick if it takes 15 seconds for the anchor to float to the bottom. When I sail in and drop my 50 pounder and 100 feet of 5/8 chain, I"d bet my boat I'm holding faster, longer, and stronger than the dude with the dog chain and the anchor that actually has bouyancy.
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Old 07-27-2012
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Re: Let's talk about anchors some more

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Originally Posted by Capt.aaron View Post
The problem I see with the Mantus people is they are trying to tell me that a boat my size should use 1/4 inch chain and I know from actual experience I can seperate the links on a 1/4 inch chain with not much force. It's dog chain.
I don't understand this at all. You know that 1/4" chain has a 1/4" diameter of the metal, right, not the width of the finished chain? You are buying anchor chain and not something from Home Depot? I would like to see pictures of failed 1/4" chain under "not much force." There is something fundamentally wrong if you are having this experience with 1/4" BBB and certainly HT.

1/4" BBB should be fine on your 28' boat (9,000 lb right?).
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  #59  
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Re: Let's talk about anchors some more

I'll I know is the one time I anchored with 1/4 chain was when the coast guard cut me loose from my big anchor to move my boat and gave me a 25 pound danforth and 30 feet of 1/4 anchor chain as a replacement. I got the anchor hung up, when I raised it finally, the chain links where seperated and the anchor was bent like a pretzle. I've, after a big blow seperated the links on some 3/8. that I bought as anchor chain from west marine. I don't generally take pictures of that crap, but I think I'll start. Just to hold 1/4 inch chain it feels dinky. It's the same diameter of my uppers, and yes, know how chain is sized.
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Re: Let's talk about anchors some more

I also want to say that "should be fine" is a far cry from " Damn straight, it's bigger than I need"
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