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Go Back   SailNet Community > Skills and Seamanship > Seamanship & Navigation
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Seamanship & Navigation Forum devoted to seamanship and navigation topics, including paper and electronic charting tools.


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  #81  
Old 07-30-2012
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Re: Let's talk about anchors some more

Quote:
Originally Posted by Capt.aaron View Post
The problem I see with the Mantus people is they are trying to tell me that a boat my size should use 1/4 inch chain and I know from actual experience I can seperate the links on a 1/4 inch chain with not much force. It's dog chain. How can I belive any thing else they say when right off the bat there putting me in a perilous situation.
Ok, I am one of those people from Mantus Anchors.... , The name is Greg. Chain working load and ultimate breaking strength are not hypothetical math calculations and lab tests but very conservative recommendations (with lots of margin) based on extensive testing and accepted in industry without reservation. So if BBB 1/4 inch chain (not high tense) has 1300 working load, ultimate breaking strength is 3900 lbs. For you under sail to come even close to this thrust, you would need roughly an equivalent of 100hp engine, so no your mainsail would not do it in 20 knots of wind.... Its possible that you had rusted out or otherwise damaged chain, but chain maintenance is part of what you called "seamanship".
1/4 inch chain on a 9000 lbs boat is perfectly reasonable and is inline with industry recommendations. Nothing wrong with going with bigger chain, it just hurt so bad when you say you can't trust us because we recommend that you use "DOG CHAIN". Even after having a drink I still couldn't let it go.
Greg
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Last edited by Mantus Anchors; 07-31-2012 at 12:04 PM. Reason: typo
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  #82  
Old 07-30-2012
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Re: Let's talk about anchors some more

No offense, sorry to hurt feelings. A couple of points A. What is the force created by a 4 foot rolling wave in 40 knot's of wind while trying to sail out of a tight spot on a 9000 lb boat, when all the forces hit at that horrible perfect moment of impact?. 2. 1/4 doesn't have the weight to lessen the pull on the anchor. I can't say what quality chain the coast guard replaced my heavy chain with only that it was new and 1/4 inch. 3. When droppin in a hury, emergancy under way and out of control, the light anchor and chain won't sink quick enough. and how often do you recomend changing out the chain, " in rust we trust" corrosion happens and I want my 4 year old chain to still have plenty of strength even with a little wear, not be at it's threshold. I'm sure the mantus is a neat an innovative anchor and perfect for normal conditions for hand raising. But conditions go from normal to extreme when we least expect it. If there is a windless on board, than why use light, dainty, sensitve, just good enough most of the time, gear?
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Last edited by Capt.aaron; 07-30-2012 at 10:18 AM.
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  #83  
Old 07-30-2012
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Re: Let's talk about anchors some more

Captain Aaron - I respectfully suggest you read and try hard to understand this Tuning an Anchor Rode .

If you don't believe it then you should avoid driving over bridges, using elevators, walking or driving under power lines, or getting anywhere close to a building with steel structure.
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  #84  
Old 07-30-2012
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Re: Let's talk about anchors some more

I respectfully suggest you anchor with 1/4 inch chain in a storm, with an unexpected set of rollers comeing a cross an anchorage with some fetch, hang the anchor on some un accounted for debris, don some dive gear and go down an actually watch the forces of nature with your own eyes instead reading about it. then shorten the chain till your right up on the anchor and sail around on it untill your able to get it free all the while bouncing in said big chop. I respectfully doubt reading an article is going to sell me a 7 pound anchor and chain that I can't even get a grip on. On paper, math makes sense, the forces of the ocean will make a believer out of you.
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  #85  
Old 07-30-2012
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Re: Let's talk about anchors some more

Let's just say, I have brand new, high quality, Ht, 1/4 chain. never been used, then I ride out the above conditions, how many times can I put that little chain through those conditions. I neeed chain that can handle that over and over, tug after tug. I anchor 700 day's in a row. When is my 1/4 old, or fatigued, a lot sooner than my 1/2 or bigger. When you dive in extreme conditions and watch the anchor and chain, that 1/4 is pulled tight and really pulling on the anchor. the weight of my 5/8 is doing all the work. Are the mantus people suggesting I change the 1/4 chain yearly, or every 2. I've had the same 5/8 chain for 5 years and it's looking good for several more. If they told me I should use 3/8, I might not spend the money on their fancy light anchor.
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Old 07-30-2012
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Re: Let's talk about anchors some more

Quote:
Originally Posted by Capt.aaron View Post
I respectfully suggest you anchor with 1/4 inch chain in a storm, with an unexpected set of rollers comeing a cross an anchorage with some fetch, hang the anchor on some un accounted for debris, don some dive gear and go down an actually watch the forces of nature with your own eyes instead reading about it. then shorten the chain till your right up on the anchor and sail around on it untill your able to get it free all the while bouncing in said big chop. I respectfully doubt reading an article is going to sell me a 7 pound anchor and chain that I can't even get a grip on. On paper, math makes sense, the forces of the ocean will make a believer out of you.
Well, my 40' cutter is 22,000# so I use 8mm (about 5/16") HT chain.

I often anchor out in roadsteads so I get expected rollers and generally a lot of fetch. I usually anchor in areas where diving isn't a lot of fun, but when I'm in the Bahamas or the Caribbean I do get the chance to watch the dynamics. The analysis Mr. Fraysse presents is very well supported by empirical observation.

My anchor holds very well, so my normal means of weighing anchor is to haul the rode in to vertical and wait for the boat motion to break it free. I don't understand your point.

If it weren't for science and engineering not much of anything would work.

I'm not an armchair sailor. I do sail the bottom paint off my boat. There is a difference between just reading about things and understanding the physics of nature that allows us to predict responses and design the appropriate systems to deal with them.
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  #87  
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Re: Let's talk about anchors some more

BIG = GOOD, BIGGER = BETTER. That's my point. I'd rather ride on my Chain weight before I pull on the anchor. Alway's have and alway's will. the laws of corrosion dictate that the 1/4 chain will deteriate in strentgh expenentially each year there fore need replacing fairly often. If your comfy leaving the boat on the hook with that little chain then good, I would'nt leave my smaller boat on chain that small for an afternoon. 3/8 is the min. for a boat my size.
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Last edited by Capt.aaron; 07-30-2012 at 02:38 PM.
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Old 07-30-2012
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Re: Let's talk about anchors some more

Quote:
Originally Posted by Capt.aaron View Post
BIG = GOOD, BIGGER = BETTER. That's my point. I'd rather ride on my Chain weight before I pull on the anchor. Alway's have and alway's will. the laws of corrosion dictate that the 1/4 chain will deteriate in strentgh expenentially each year there fore need replacing fairly often. If your comfy leaving the boat on the hook with that little chain then good, I would'nt leave my smaller boat on chain that small for an afternoon. 3/8 is the min. for a boat my size.
Chain will deteriorate linearly as a function of surface area, not exponentially. It seems to me that you should get a better scientific understanding of the value of anchor weight and geometric holding vice chain weight.

It also seems to me that you are more interested in being right than in understanding.

Auspicious out.
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  #89  
Old 07-30-2012
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Re: Let's talk about anchors some more

Quote:
Originally Posted by Capt.aaron View Post
BIG = GOOD, BIGGER = BETTER. That's my point. I'd rather ride on my Chain weight before I pull on the anchor. Alway's have and alway's will. the laws of corrosion dictate that the 1/4 chain will deteriate in strentgh expenentially each year there fore need replacing fairly often. If your comfy leaving the boat on the hook with that little chain then good, I would'nt leave my smaller boat on chain that small for an afternoon. 3/8 is the min. for a boat my size.
The Dashews who know a thing or two about anchoring use 3/8 chain ( G7) chain on their 83 foot FPB. This is with a displacement of 86,000 lb.
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Last edited by noelex77; 07-30-2012 at 04:42 PM.
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Re: Let's talk about anchors some more

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Originally Posted by noelex77 View Post
The Dashews who know a thing or two about anchoring use 3/8 chain ( G7) chain on their 83 foot FPB. This is with a displacement of 86,000 lb.
They specifically address chain size in this page on their site.

They say, among other things:
Once you have sufficient strength in the chain to connect boat to anchor, the best system for the weight will always be light rode/big anchor.
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