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Go Back   SailNet Community > Skills and Seamanship > Seamanship & Navigation
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Seamanship & Navigation Forum devoted to seamanship and navigation topics, including paper and electronic charting tools.


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  #11  
Old 10-09-2012
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Re: Close call! Who had rights?

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Originally Posted by chucklesR View Post
Unfurling the jib does nothing if the motor is running.
It's still under mechanical propulsion anytime the engine is running.
The transmission must be engaged to be a power driven vessel. If you wish I can post some responses I received by email.
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  #12  
Old 10-09-2012
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Re: Close call! Who had rights?

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Originally Posted by svzephyr44 View Post
The fact that you were both drifting has nothing to do with the rules. Without being exactly clear relative position of the two boats I can't speak for who was burdened. Now you violated Rule 8 which requires you to take prompt action to avoid a collision (since you almost hit you waited too long.) But the real key is Rule 17. Rule 17 says (paraphrasing) that it doesn't matter who has "rights" in the final analysis even the "Stand on" vessel must take action to avoid the collision. My guess, not being a maritime lawyer is that a court would find both boats liable and apportion costs under that basis.
As is true in most cases.

You are not NUC without the appropriate dayshapes or lights.

Proper lookout might also play a role.
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  #13  
Old 10-09-2012
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Re: Close call! Who had rights?

There is no such thing as 'rights'.
for instance... with your girl/boy/friend/wife/or driving your car/etc...
Do you want to be 'right' or do you want to be happy(or alive)?
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Old 10-09-2012
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Re: Close call! Who had rights?

We were Port to Port and I would estimate I was pointed at him about 20 degrees, about 20 feet apart. My motor was idling in neutral (I would never be in that situation without the motor running). The two boats seemed to be standing still relative to each other, then suddenly we were coming together as I described in the OP. Another crew member and I WERE paying attention, and DID take evasive action (full reverse) ASAP. I assure you, it happened THAT quickly. I have no reason to believe either crew did anything wrong. They did have crew on the bow and we were in the cockpit, so they alerted first (may be a lesson there!). The other boat was to windward, so my best guess is a gust blew him toward me. You might assume that both boats would be in the same current. Though...in the SF Bay that is certainly not a given.
I freely admitted my mistake, of putting myself in the situation to begin with. Having said that (and without singling anyone out) there is a lot of chest beating going on here. "doesn't matter who's right", "you didn't act quickly enough", etc..
I simply posed the question because as I thought about it, it wasn't clear to me if anyone was really wrong (other than being there!).
Had we collided, it would have been a "fender bender", certainly no one was going to "sink". However, when two medium size keel boats collide, (even slowly) it can add up to big bucks in a hurry. I'll guarantee you, my insurance company would have been questioning who was right and wrong!

Last edited by L124C; 10-09-2012 at 06:07 PM.
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Old 10-09-2012
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Re: Close call! Who had rights?

Ok, got it. You were pointed 20 degrees toward the other boat. If he was fully past your bow, there is no inherent conflict, as your presumed direction of travel couldn't collide. Whomever stopped first would have been the one to cause the collision. Somehow, our both got in that position.

If he wasn't fully past your bow, and you could see any of his vessel directly ahead, then he was to your starboard. If even only his transom, he had rights.
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Old 10-09-2012
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Re: Close call! Who had rights?

Went out same day last year. It was enough to put me off doing it again for a few years!

Have you noticed all those big power boats that sit in the marina all year round, and only go out 4th July and fleet week? How capable sailors do you think they are?

Most people are looking at the sky, not where they are going.

The VHF makes interesting listening, though : lots of calls along the lines of : "xxxxx, watch your wake", "xxxxx watch where you are going", and even, memorably, "xxxxx, you sure are an *******"
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Old 10-09-2012
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Re: Close call! Who had rights?

Quote:
Originally Posted by svzephyr44 View Post
The key question here is was either vessel "Not Under Command." If so the other boat is burdened and required to keep clear. In order to be Not Under Command your vessel has to be unable to maneuver (Rule 3.) You clearly were able to maneuver since by your own admission you put the boat in gear and avoided a collision. Your sails were down so you were clearly in the category of a motor vessel according to the rules. So now the question becomes was he NUC? Most likely not. The fact that you were both drifting has nothing to do with the rules. Without being exactly clear relative position of the two boats I can't speak for who was burdened. Now you violated Rule 8 which requires you to take prompt action to avoid a collision (since you almost hit you waited too long.) But the real key is Rule 17. Rule 17 says (paraphrasing) that it doesn't matter who has "rights" in the final analysis even the "Stand on" vessel must take action to avoid the collision. My guess, not being a maritime lawyer is that a court would find both boats liable and apportion costs under that basis.

The proper action would be to have unfurled your jib! (LOL)
You may 'think' youre not under command, your boat may actually be behaving as one 'not under command'; but, unless you have two red balls or two red lights aloft ... you're simply NOT 'not under command'.

In most such venues where boats are apparently drifting, the one with the current from behind/astern is the usual one that is considered 'privileged' ... but as a courtesy only and when not under Mississippi River or other 'inland river' Rules.
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Last edited by RichH; 10-09-2012 at 06:39 PM.
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Old 10-09-2012
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Re: Close call! Who had rights?

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Originally Posted by RichH View Post
You may 'think' youre not under command, your boat may actually be behaving as one 'not under command'; but, unless you have two red balls or two red lights aloft ... you're simply NOT 'not under command'.

In most such venues where boats are apparently drifting, the one with the current from behind/astern is the usual one that is considered 'privileged' ... but as a courtesy only and when not under Mississippi River or other 'inland river' Rules.
Good post. That apples to RAM and engaged in fishing as well.

Is there anything in colregs that specifies the colors of the balls?
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Old 10-09-2012
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Re: Close call! Who had rights?

We were out on Sunday on the North West edge of the box and it was boat soup out there. We were doing the same, motor, drift and dodging. We followed the “discretion is the better part of valor” rule and aimed for sterns. A lot of folks at the air show only go out twice a year so we are extra careful. Energy/France entered the box right next to our boat, luffed, and got ready for the race all within 50 yards or so of us – a real treat. Our biggest challenge was the afterwards on our trip home. We sailed along the edge of the performance box and didn’t have any crossing situations until the Jeremiah O’Brien who was moving towards her dock at 8 -10 kts cut off our angle to Alameda. Good breeze, a fair amount of chop, and all in all, a fun day. Now that you are a veteran of close crossings, will I see you at the Three Bridge Fiasco next year?
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Old 10-09-2012
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Re: Close call! Who had rights?

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Originally Posted by MarkSF View Post
Went out same day last year. It was enough to put me off doing it again for a few years!
Don't let it do that! I've been taking people out to watch the Angels for years, staying far away from the spetator fleet (until I got stupid this year!). This year several AC 45's strafed us at about 20 knots (pre-race, while we were outside the "fleet"). What a thrill! With hydro foils and rigs 130 feet tall, the 72's are going to be off the charts! Hope to see ya out there 2013!

Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkSF View Post
Have you noticed all those big power boats that sit in the marina all year round, and only go out 4th July and fleet week? How capable sailors do you think they are?
Yeah...In fact, you reminded me of this incident which also happend this weekend! http://www.sailnet.com/forums/seaman...tml#post931473

Last edited by L124C; 10-09-2012 at 11:29 PM.
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