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Go Back   SailNet Community > Skills and Seamanship > Seamanship & Navigation
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Seamanship & Navigation Forum devoted to seamanship and navigation topics, including paper and electronic charting tools.


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  #21  
Old 10-09-2012
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[QUOTE=L124C;931333
I freely admitted my mistake, of putting myself in the situation to begin with. Having said that (and without singling anyone out) there is a lot of chest beating going on here. "doesn't matter who's right", "you didn't act quickly enough", etc..
I simply posed the question because as I thought about it, it wasn't clear to me if anyone was really wrong (other than being there!).
I'll guarantee you, my insurance company would have been questioning who was right and wrong![/QUOTE]

I agree I have seen situations where "evasive" actions weren't really helpful and it is good to know who needs to be stand down.


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  #22  
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Re: Close call! Who had rights?

Quote:
Originally Posted by chucklesR View Post
Unfurling the jib does nothing if the motor is running.
It's still under mechanical propulsion anytime the engine is running.
You are of course right. I should have said stop the engine and unfurl the jib (LOL)
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  #23  
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Re: Close call! Who had rights?

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Originally Posted by PBzeer View Post
I have one simple rule ... I don't care who is "in the right", I do what ever is necessary to avoid a collision. Being right doesn't do ya much good if you're underwater.

I don't expect anything, from anyone else, whether I should be able to or not. My boat, my responsibility, period.
This is the essence of Rule 17.
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  #24  
Old 10-10-2012
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Re: Close call! Who had rights?

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Originally Posted by jackdale View Post
The transmission must be engaged to be a power driven vessel. If you wish I can post some responses I received by email.
Exactly how is the other boat to note whether or not the transmission is engaged?

If I can see exhaust and water from the stern so I know the motor is running and therefore it's a motor boat, simply knocking it out of gear does NOT enable a skipper to say I'm a sailing vessel and have right of way.

Rule 14 applies here, two POWER driven vessels meeting head on, both turn to the right. No restrictions had been posted.

Rule 17, everything to avoid a collision, not play legal games.

I really don't care about the responses you got via email.
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  #25  
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Re: Close call! Who had rights?

Quote:
Originally Posted by chucklesR View Post
Exactly how is the other boat to note whether or not the transmission is engaged?

If I can see exhaust and water from the stern so I know the motor is running and therefore it's a motor boat, simply knocking it out of gear does NOT enable a skipper to say I'm a sailing vessel and have right of way.

Rule 14 applies here, two POWER driven vessels meeting head on, both turn to the right. No restrictions had been posted.

Rule 17, everything to avoid a collision, not play legal games.

I really don't care about the responses you got via email.
Rule 14 does not apply; rule 17(b) does. Rule 2 is likely the trump card.

While you might not care, those seeking an educated opinion might. Me original question had to do with charging the batteries, but the concept is the same.

http://www.sailnet.com/forums/seaman...tml#post559988

Quote:
Jack,

I am not aware of any case that has considered this issue. My own view is that the sailboat would not be a power driven vessel for the purpose of the collision regulations as the propulsion power is the sails and not the engine. The definition of "sailing vessel" actually contemplates this scenario. That definition is " ...any vessel under sail provided that propelling machinery, if fitted, is not being used". In your scenario the vessel is under sail and the propelling machinery is not being utilized (only the engine is used but, importantly, not the propellers). The sailboat would therefore be a sailing vessel within the meaning of the collision regulations. The sailboat in this scenario is really just running a generator.

I am glad that you have found my site to be of use.

Regards,
Chris Giaschi

Christopher J. Giaschi
Giaschi & Margolis
401-815 Hornby Street
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Quote:
Jack

Our understanding is that if the engine is disengaged from and not turning the propeller or other propulsion machinery, then the propelling machinery is not being used. The engine is only acting as a generator to charge the batteries.

Brgds

Harry

Captain Harry Gale BSc (Hons) FNI
Technical Manager
The Nautical Institute, 202 Lambeth Road, London, SE1 7LQ

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Quote:
Dear Mr Dale,

I am not a maritime lawyer, but my interpretation of the Col Regs as a Master Mariner is that for a sailing vessel to become a power driven vessel the propeller must been engaged. Charging the batteries without engaging the transmission would therefore not change the status of sailing.

Best regards

Philip Wake
Chief Executive

The Nautical Institute
202 Lambeth Road
London, SE1 7LQ
UK
Tel: +44 (0)20 7928 1351
Fax: +44 (0)20 7401 2817
Email: cpw@nautinst.org
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  #26  
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Re: Close call! Who had rights?

Nice Jack, but he wasn't 'charging the batteries' he CHOOSE to drift, and his last motive force was the engine, not his sails.


I'm sure you educated folks can slice and dice it all you want, bottom line is what it is.
He was a drifting power boat that met another power boat head on (or, in your educated opinion is 20 degrees off the bow not sufficiently head on to be head on?)

You want to discuss what the meaning of the word "is" is, get a lawyer.
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Re: Close call! Who had rights?

Quote:
Originally Posted by chucklesR View Post
Exactly how is the other boat to note whether or not the transmission is engaged?

If I can see exhaust and water from the stern so I know the motor is running and therefore it's a motor boat, simply knocking it out of gear does NOT enable a skipper to say I'm a sailing vessel and have right of way.

Rule 14 applies here, two POWER driven vessels meeting head on, both turn to the right. No restrictions had been posted.

Rule 17, everything to avoid a collision, not play legal games.

I really don't care about the responses you got via email.
The ONLY thing that defines that a sailboat is 'under (engine) power ... the sailboat is flying an inverted CONE in the rigging or the 'steaming light' is on at night.
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Re: Close call! Who had rights?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jackdale View Post
Good post. That apples to RAM and engaged in fishing as well.

Is there anything in colregs that specifies the colors of the balls?

Sure is ... REQUIRED Dayshapes and nav. lights are covered in Part C of the ColRegs.

Admiralty precedent clearly defines if that a proper dayshape or nav. light is NOT flown ... youre clearly NOT under the status that you 'think' you are; and, that includes having the proper dayshape or lights (and bells!!!) when anchored.

If you are anchored during daytime, do not have a black ball in the rigging and someone hits YOU .... you are guilty as a contributory party to the collision.

I believe that there have been major awards following litigation where PWCs have hit anchor rodes, and the anchored boat was deemed partly responsible or 'contributory' because they were not flying the black ball dayshape.

Last edited by RichH; 10-10-2012 at 10:25 AM.
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Re: Close call! Who had rights?

Quote:
Originally Posted by RichH View Post
The ONLY thing that defines that a sailboat is 'under (engine) power ... the sailboat is flying an inverted CONE in the rigging or the 'steaming light' is on at night.
Rich - thanks for that. The problem is the exception for the cone. There is no exception for the masthead (steaming) light.

Quote:
(e) A vessel proceeding under sail when also being propelled by machinery shall exhibit forward where it can best be seen a conical shape, apex downwards. A vessel of less than 12 meters in length is not required to exhibit this shape, but may do so.
There are exception for anchor balls as well.

Quote:
g) A vessel of less than 20 meters in length, when at anchor in a special anchorage area designated by the Secretary, shall not be required to exhibit the anchor lights and shapes required by this Rule.
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Last edited by jackdale; 10-10-2012 at 11:01 AM.
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Re: Close call! Who had rights?

Rich

I can find no requirement for colors in part C. Ever ball, inverted cone and diamond shape I have seen are black. I have never seen a NUC, so I was surprised thatb their ball had to be red.
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