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Go Back   SailNet Community > Skills and Seamanship > Seamanship & Navigation
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Seamanship & Navigation Forum devoted to seamanship and navigation topics, including paper and electronic charting tools.


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  #31  
Old 10-10-2012
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Re: Close call! Who had rights?

Im just going from memory here ... look for the dayshapes for dredges, etc. Im pretty sure the dayshapes for dredges include 'color'.
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  #32  
Old 10-10-2012
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Re: Close call! Who had rights?

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Originally Posted by RichH View Post
Im just going from memory here ... look for the dayshapes for dredges, etc. Im pretty sure the dayshapes for dredges include 'color'.
I should have looked here. Rule 27a - Vessels Not Under Commandi



http://www.navcen.uscg.gov/?pageName=nr_27d



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Last edited by jackdale; 10-10-2012 at 11:22 AM.
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  #33  
Old 10-10-2012
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Re: Close call! Who had rights?

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Originally Posted by PBzeer View Post
I have one simple rule ... I don't care who is "in the right", I do what ever is necessary to avoid a collision. Being right doesn't do ya much good if you're underwater.

I don't expect anything, from anyone else, whether I should be able to or not. My boat, my responsibility, period.
WELL SAID. It's like sailing across a 150' M/V I would avoid that as tonnage wins. AVOID AVOID AVOID no matter who is right. Nothing bad happened so it doesn't matter who was right.

Try this motor drifting on the 4th of july in the dark with a 1000 boats on Lake Michigan of which 50 or so have no navigation lights and only know how to catch fish or water ski/tube going CCW on a small inland.

You won't see the fireworks as you are to busy keeping an eye on other boats even anchored or not.
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  #34  
Old 10-10-2012
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Re: Close call! Who had rights?

Not to go deeper into the weeds on the "vessel under power/command" issue. However, prior to the incident in the OP (this was an eventful day), we were clipping along close hauled. I had a novice sailor at the helm. We were headed toward a spectator sailboat in the distance, sitting by itself without sails or anchor. I noticed my guy doing the classic rookie move of heading up to avoid the obstacle, without trimming the sails (or in this case, tacking). I told him he had to maintain course, as he was "taking his foot off the gas" and giving up momentum by heading up, possibly disabling us from taking evasive action (in this case, tacking) should the give way boat not move. He asked, "Well, what if the other boat is disabled?"(a moot point, as we simply would have pinched up or tacked). I replied: "If he's disabled, he better start waving his arms or something other than sipping on that beer in his hand!"
Point being, given engine failure, you may not have time to hoist day signals (and I'm certainly not hoisting the only "balls" on my boat, wrong color anyway!), but I expect some signal that things are not normal, and that the regular rules do not apply.
In addition, it always amuses me when inexperienced helmsmen change course to avoid an obstacle (often very early) without mentioning it, or trimming, as if they were driving a car. I've had this conversation with this guy before, and he's no dummy. Sometimes I'm not sure they realize they are doing it!
Do other skippers notice this? If so, how do you convey to novices that a sailboat needs way on to maneuver around an obstical?

Last edited by L124C; 10-10-2012 at 06:37 PM.
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  #35  
Old 10-10-2012
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Re: Close call! Who had rights?

L124C,

Teach them to fall off rather than point (if appropriate) - you can always point higher later.
Also teach them to communicate everything they do other than maintain course and speed.
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  #36  
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Re: Close call! Who had rights?

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Originally Posted by L124C View Post
Do other skippers notice this? If so, how do you convey to novices that a sailboat needs way on to maneuver around an obstical?
Before altering course we teach helmsmen to issue commands:

"bearing away, ease the sheets"
"heading up, harden the sheets"
"prepare to gybe"
"prepare to come about"

The only one without a preparatory command is "heaving-to."

The way issues is crucial under power when maneuvering at slow speed. On a fin keel I like about .5 knots to maintain steerage. On full keels, you may need 1 knot. It does vary from boat to boat.

We also teach maneuvering in close quarters so that they can use prop walk to turn a boat on its keel.

Pinching is something to be avoided; you slow down and make leeway.
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Last edited by jackdale; 10-10-2012 at 07:01 PM.
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Re: Close call! Who had rights?

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Originally Posted by chucklesR View Post
L124C,

Teach them to fall off
Not a phrase I like to use when on the water.
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  #38  
Old 10-11-2012
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Re: Close call! Who had rights?

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Originally Posted by chucklesR View Post
Exactly how is the other boat to note whether or not the transmission is engaged?

If I can see exhaust and water from the stern so I know the motor is running and therefore it's a motor boat, simply knocking it out of gear does NOT enable a skipper to say I'm a sailing vessel and have right of way.

Rule 14 applies here, two POWER driven vessels meeting head on, both turn to the right. No restrictions had been posted.

Rule 17, everything to avoid a collision, not play legal games.

I really don't care about the responses you got via email.
Really?? I would think the big white sails would be a pretty good indication the vessel was under sail

The exhaust does not make the vessel a powerboat.... Only mechanical propulsion can do that.... Btw... How do you know the water coming out the aft end of that boat under sail isn't from a generator.... ??
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  #39  
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Re: Close call! Who had rights?

Racing terms for new students, do's and don'ts--

"Rail Meat"---yes, they think it's funny. So do I. Also quicker to yell than "come on up to windward now"

"Blow the guy"--no. Just no.

"Blow the vang"--better, but what's a vang again?

"Harden up"--not at first, it hurts their feelings. They get over it later once they get what you meant.

"Gimme some tail"--careful, you may get the winch handle where you didn't want it..

"Jibe Ho"-- permissible, but tell your female students it's not Hip-hop first.

"Fall off a little"--you're right, not to be done till you explain that all "up" and "down" clone words no longer mean vertical, but rather horizontal and either toward or away from the Wind God's mouth..


I'm still waiting to use "scandalize the main", but the opportunity hasn't presented itself..
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  #40  
Old 10-13-2012
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Re: Close call! Who had rights?

Quote:
Originally Posted by chucklesR View Post
L124C,

Teach them to fall off rather than point (if appropriate) - you can always point higher later.
Also teach them to communicate everything they do other than maintain course and speed.
It's not a matter of point of sail (though in this case we had another small obstacle to Leeward, called Alcatraz!). I wouldn't want them to fall off without letting out sail either.
I was hoping the other boat would move and/or we would get a header and could maintain trim/course.
I do teach them to communicate when maneuvering, and they do when tacking, gibing etc,.
As I indicated, this almost seems subconscious on their part. As if subconsciously they think: "I'm concerned about that obstacle in the distance and I'll just ease around it and no one (including the laws of physics) will notice". It's hard to believe, but I honestly don't think they know they are doing it. I've seen it too often to be coincidence. I think it relates to the fact that most of their experience is behind the wheel of a car.
1. They don't calibrate that on a sailboat (unlike in a car), that obstacle is a long way off.
2. In their car they simply turn the wheel to avoid an obstacle and apply the brake or gas as needed. We of course know that changing course without trimming amounts to taking your foot off the gas and (eventually) your hands off the wheel. Regarding brakes, well....they weren't an option on my boat.

Last edited by L124C; 10-13-2012 at 01:16 PM.
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