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Close call! Who had rights?

10K views 59 replies 20 participants last post by  jackdale 
#1 · (Edited)
Sailed during the SF Fleet Week (Blue Angels) and AC World Series this weekend. The combination was spectacular! I usually avoid the "spectator fleet" at all costs, as the carnage is legendary for obvious reasons. I sail around the perimeter, while my guests watch the action. However, a hole opened up in front of us and suddenly we found ourselves sitting ringside with no one around, so we dropped sails and decided to spectate. It was great for a couple of minutes, then suddenly, we were surrounded by boats of every description moving every which way. We were moving/drifting slowly North, another sailboat (also under power, without sails) was in front of us moving/drifting South. Our bows were Port to Port with the other boat slightly sideways in front of my boat. Suddenly we were much to close for comfort and closing fast . I still don't know why, possibly current or wind change (my boat was in neutral, the wind would have been on his Starboard beam). The other crew started yelling and prepared to fend off, I slammed my boat into reverse with full throttle. We must have come within a couple of inches, I was waiting for the crunch! Fortunately, no one was directly behind me.
Anyway, who had rights, if anybody? I know when two power boats cross paths, the boat off the Port bow has to give way, and boats should pass Port to Port when possible. I'm guessing in this case, we would have each been responsible for our own damage (due to our stupidity for putting our boats in that un-navigable situation). Thoughts?
In any case NEVER again...I knew better!
Though...I will be watching the 2013 LV and AC (from a distance, then on TV). It will be spectacular, guaranteed!
 
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#2 ·
.....Our bows were Port to Port with the other boat slightly sideways in front of my boat......
Can you describe this a bit better? I think I understand you are both motoring, so motor boat rules apply. Not certain that is the case either.

If your bows are exactly port to port, there is no risk of collision, so the rules would not apply. The slightly sideways must be the key.
 
#3 ·
If the sails are down and you aren't anchored or showing a day shape for anchored you are a motor boat.
The description is not clear enough, he was motoring, sideways in front of you and you were drifting - it appears to me that you were passing side to side and 'something' closed the gap.
That would be you, you, and you - unless he made a turn to cross in front.

In any case, you opted to not be able to control your boat in a potentially crowded sea way.
I've observed many races including Volvo's and the local stuff. The Volvo races had (according to the media) 1000+ boats. Drifting is not an option.
 
#4 · (Edited)
If you had no form of propulsion you are a NUC. As you had engines and were not anchored you were under way. Drifting is considered underway by USCG.

If you drift into another, (IE anchored) vessel, you are at fault, as you are moving, and they are not. Prop wash will close the gap between a powered vessel, and another vessel, due to law of physics, faster moving fluids have less pressure than slower moving fluids.

In this case you drifted into another vessels path....As they likely didn't know whether you were drifting, or just slowly maneuvering, (no day shapes?), usual collision avoidance rules were in effect, Ie passing, crossing rules. When you failed to comply, they should have given you a wide berth.

That they failed to do so indicates they were also paying more attention to the race, than surrounding traffic.

Lesson for future; When not at anchor in an accepted anchorage, have someone at the helm, and on watch at all times.
 
#5 ·
You may be describing a situation where you're drifting in neutral (or engine off) and other boat was doing the same?

I don't think the crossing, meeting, overtaking, or "who's on whose starboard side" applies here, since neither of you, though "underway", had a "course", which the rules envision. Both drifting (into each other)? I'd call it a "special circumstance" where fault isn't assigned under the rules, you both may fall under Rule 2, the "special circumstances" rule, where you just do the best you can under the circumstances. No hard and fast rule, I don't think.
 
#7 ·
Intereseting and coloregs set aside, in this situation you do what you think is right to keep from hitting anyone. When the AC45's were in Newport I did the same thing. Sat in close proximity with 300 of my closest friends in everything from a laser (just scooting around) to an 150' mega yacht. everyone was using a combination of throttle, rudder and direction to maintain a postion againest the wind and current. It was actually fun and stressful at same time. Boats were "drifting' in and out of from row postions all day. It was fun once, I'll never do it again. Couldn't take my eyes off all the boats around me.
 
#8 · (Edited)
The key question here is was either vessel "Not Under Command." If so the other boat is burdened and required to keep clear. In order to be Not Under Command your vessel has to be unable to maneuver (Rule 3.) You clearly were able to maneuver since by your own admission you put the boat in gear and avoided a collision. Your sails were down so you were clearly in the category of a motor vessel according to the rules. So now the question becomes was he NUC? Most likely not. The fact that you were both drifting has nothing to do with the rules. Without being exactly clear relative position of the two boats I can't speak for who was burdened. Now you violated Rule 8 which requires you to take prompt action to avoid a collision (since you almost hit you waited too long.) But the real key is Rule 17. Rule 17 says (paraphrasing) that it doesn't matter who has "rights" in the final analysis even the "Stand on" vessel must take action to avoid the collision. My guess, not being a maritime lawyer is that a court would find both boats liable and apportion costs under that basis.

The proper action would be to have unfurled your jib! (LOL)
 
#12 ·
The fact that you were both drifting has nothing to do with the rules. Without being exactly clear relative position of the two boats I can't speak for who was burdened. Now you violated Rule 8 which requires you to take prompt action to avoid a collision (since you almost hit you waited too long.) But the real key is Rule 17. Rule 17 says (paraphrasing) that it doesn't matter who has "rights" in the final analysis even the "Stand on" vessel must take action to avoid the collision. My guess, not being a maritime lawyer is that a court would find both boats liable and apportion costs under that basis.
As is true in most cases.

You are not NUC without the appropriate dayshapes or lights.

Proper lookout might also play a role.
 
#11 ·
The transmission must be engaged to be a power driven vessel. If you wish I can post some responses I received by email.
 
#10 ·
I have one simple rule ... I don't care who is "in the right", I do what ever is necessary to avoid a collision. Being right doesn't do ya much good if you're underwater.

I don't expect anything, from anyone else, whether I should be able to or not. My boat, my responsibility, period.
 
#14 · (Edited)
We were Port to Port and I would estimate I was pointed at him about 20 degrees, about 20 feet apart. My motor was idling in neutral (I would never be in that situation without the motor running). The two boats seemed to be standing still relative to each other, then suddenly we were coming together as I described in the OP. Another crew member and I WERE paying attention, and DID take evasive action (full reverse) ASAP. I assure you, it happened THAT quickly. I have no reason to believe either crew did anything wrong. They did have crew on the bow and we were in the cockpit, so they alerted first (may be a lesson there!). The other boat was to windward, so my best guess is a gust blew him toward me. You might assume that both boats would be in the same current. Though...in the SF Bay that is certainly not a given.
I freely admitted my mistake, of putting myself in the situation to begin with. Having said that (and without singling anyone out) there is a lot of chest beating going on here. "doesn't matter who's right", "you didn't act quickly enough", etc..
I simply posed the question because as I thought about it, it wasn't clear to me if anyone was really wrong (other than being there!).
Had we collided, it would have been a "fender bender", certainly no one was going to "sink". However, when two medium size keel boats collide, (even slowly) it can add up to big bucks in a hurry. I'll guarantee you, my insurance company would have been questioning who was right and wrong!
 
#15 ·
Ok, got it. You were pointed 20 degrees toward the other boat. If he was fully past your bow, there is no inherent conflict, as your presumed direction of travel couldn't collide. Whomever stopped first would have been the one to cause the collision. Somehow, our both got in that position.

If he wasn't fully past your bow, and you could see any of his vessel directly ahead, then he was to your starboard. If even only his transom, he had rights.
 
#16 ·
Went out same day last year. It was enough to put me off doing it again for a few years!

Have you noticed all those big power boats that sit in the marina all year round, and only go out 4th July and fleet week? How capable sailors do you think they are?

Most people are looking at the sky, not where they are going.

The VHF makes interesting listening, though : lots of calls along the lines of : "xxxxx, watch your wake", "xxxxx watch where you are going", and even, memorably, "xxxxx, you sure are an *******"
 
#20 · (Edited)
Went out same day last year. It was enough to put me off doing it again for a few years!
Don't let it do that! I've been taking people out to watch the Angels for years, staying far away from the spetator fleet (until I got stupid this year!). This year several AC 45's strafed us at about 20 knots (pre-race, while we were outside the "fleet"). What a thrill! With hydro foils and rigs 130 feet tall, the 72's are going to be off the charts! Hope to see ya out there 2013!

Have you noticed all those big power boats that sit in the marina all year round, and only go out 4th July and fleet week? How capable sailors do you think they are?
Yeah...In fact, you reminded me of this incident which also happend this weekend! http://www.sailnet.com/forums/seamanship/92913-boat-bondage.html#post931473
 
#19 ·
We were out on Sunday on the North West edge of the box and it was boat soup out there. We were doing the same, motor, drift and dodging. We followed the “discretion is the better part of valor” rule and aimed for sterns. A lot of folks at the air show only go out twice a year so we are extra careful. Energy/France entered the box right next to our boat, luffed, and got ready for the race all within 50 yards or so of us – a real treat. Our biggest challenge was the afterwards on our trip home. We sailed along the edge of the performance box and didn’t have any crossing situations until the Jeremiah O’Brien who was moving towards her dock at 8 -10 kts cut off our angle to Alameda. Good breeze, a fair amount of chop, and all in all, a fun day. Now that you are a veteran of close crossings, will I see you at the Three Bridge Fiasco next year?
 
#26 ·
Nice Jack, but he wasn't 'charging the batteries' he CHOOSE to drift, and his last motive force was the engine, not his sails.


I'm sure you educated folks can slice and dice it all you want, bottom line is what it is.
He was a drifting power boat that met another power boat head on (or, in your educated opinion is 20 degrees off the bow not sufficiently head on to be head on?)

You want to discuss what the meaning of the word "is" is, get a lawyer.
 
#30 ·
Rich

I can find no requirement for colors in part C. Ever ball, inverted cone and diamond shape I have seen are black. I have never seen a NUC, so I was surprised thatb their ball had to be red.
 
#34 · (Edited)
Not to go deeper into the weeds on the "vessel under power/command" issue. However, prior to the incident in the OP (this was an eventful day), we were clipping along close hauled. I had a novice sailor at the helm. We were headed toward a spectator sailboat in the distance, sitting by itself without sails or anchor. I noticed my guy doing the classic rookie move of heading up to avoid the obstacle, without trimming the sails (or in this case, tacking). I told him he had to maintain course, as he was "taking his foot off the gas" and giving up momentum by heading up, possibly disabling us from taking evasive action (in this case, tacking) should the give way boat not move. He asked, "Well, what if the other boat is disabled?"(a moot point, as we simply would have pinched up or tacked). I replied: "If he's disabled, he better start waving his arms or something other than sipping on that beer in his hand!"
Point being, given engine failure, you may not have time to hoist day signals (and I'm certainly not hoisting the only "balls" on my boat, wrong color anyway!), but I expect some signal that things are not normal, and that the regular rules do not apply.
In addition, it always amuses me when inexperienced helmsmen change course to avoid an obstacle (often very early) without mentioning it, or trimming, as if they were driving a car. I've had this conversation with this guy before, and he's no dummy. Sometimes I'm not sure they realize they are doing it!
Do other skippers notice this? If so, how do you convey to novices that a sailboat needs way on to maneuver around an obstical?
 
#36 · (Edited)
Do other skippers notice this? If so, how do you convey to novices that a sailboat needs way on to maneuver around an obstical?
Before altering course we teach helmsmen to issue commands:

"bearing away, ease the sheets"
"heading up, harden the sheets"
"prepare to gybe"
"prepare to come about"

The only one without a preparatory command is "heaving-to."

The way issues is crucial under power when maneuvering at slow speed. On a fin keel I like about .5 knots to maintain steerage. On full keels, you may need 1 knot. It does vary from boat to boat.

We also teach maneuvering in close quarters so that they can use prop walk to turn a boat on its keel.

Pinching is something to be avoided; you slow down and make leeway.
 
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#39 ·
Racing terms for new students, do's and don'ts--

"Rail Meat"---yes, they think it's funny. So do I. Also quicker to yell than "come on up to windward now"

"Blow the guy"--no. Just no.

"Blow the vang"--better, but what's a vang again?

"Harden up"--not at first, it hurts their feelings. They get over it later once they get what you meant.

"Gimme some tail"--careful, you may get the winch handle where you didn't want it..

"Jibe Ho"-- permissible, but tell your female students it's not Hip-hop first.

"Fall off a little"--you're right, not to be done till you explain that all "up" and "down" clone words no longer mean vertical, but rather horizontal and either toward or away from the Wind God's mouth..


I'm still waiting to use "scandalize the main", but the opportunity hasn't presented itself..
 
#46 ·
Interesting discussion. No one mentioned the prescribed whistle signals:) I'm going over all the rules lately and it always seems somewhat pointless because so few people know the rules, signals, lights, etc. Those that do know the rules don't use them BECAUSE so few people would have a clue as to why you might be whistling 5 short blasts when they did something stupid or why you honked twice when overtaking stb. They would just think you were being rude and possibly give you the finger as you went by:)
 
#47 ·
In the case of the OP,there was no time to blow whistles. The other crew started yelling and though I couldn't hear what they were saying, the problem and only remedy (if I was fast and lucky!) was obvious. FULL REVERSE!:eek:
In addition, because we were spectators at a race, yelling was probably more effective, as I might have mistook the whistle as race activity. Not that they use whistles at Yacht races, certainly not the AC!
However, on larger vessels, 5 horn blasts are probably the most immediate way to draw attention, as yelling ain't going to work!
 
#48 ·
Sound signals and day shape regulations seem to put an undue regulatory burden upon small boats because everyone knows compliance is required under law yet no one realistically abides by those laws. It's obvious that MOST small boat owners do not know these regulations and will not in any near future. If common sense were in play, there would be a more realistic set of rules for small boats. This situation especially puts a burden on people who have obtained an OUPV or similar license because they are supposedly held to a higher standard and know they will not, in reality, comply with what is written as law. When is the last time you saw a sailboat with an inverted cone? Or a boat making proper fog signals? I've been out in pea soup many times and except for the big guys, have rarely heard a horn signal. When is the last time anyone heard a signal 1/2 mile away to indicate a boat's intention? It's just not going to happen and is downright silly.
 
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#49 ·
I have to agree with smurphny, and add the following:

The danger/doubt signal (5 or more short and rapid blasts) could be used a LOT more. You may get a hand signal in response, but at least you've gotten their attention. And it puts you right with the Rules.

Inland Rule 25 (steaming cone) says "... a vessel of less than 12 meters in length is not required to exhibit the dayshape." Obviously that doesn't help outside the demarcation line, but some never venture that far, or only motor when they're back in the harbor.

I cruise the Maine coast a lot, so I'm a big fan of automated fog signaling devices. More advanced radios that have an external loud hailer come with this feature built in, but you can also buy a device that wires into your horn circuit and issues the correct signals. Either way is MUCH better than trying to time it yourself and keep hitting the button. I find that most boats intentionally out in fog use their signals. The ones that got caught in fog unexpectedly, not so much. And of course those are the ones you worry about.

I know most small boats don't use maneuvering signals, but there are times when they are useful. Coming around a bend or out from behind a pier is a great time to give one prolonged blast. In states that require boater education, more and more people know the signals. In some (admittedly rare) cases it really can help two boaters figure out what the other is planning to do. And worst case, you can tell the admiralty court judge that you followed the rules, even if the other vessel didn't.
 
#50 ·
+1 on the VHF signaling function. I have an ICOM unit with that function and a horn that I can quickly clamp just outside the companionway. It can be used as a loudspeaker as well. Cannot find a good spot to permanently mount a horn where it will not potentially snag lines.
 
#51 · (Edited)
The masthead, of course....NOW HEAR THIS!:p

Regarding 5 blasts, you all bring up good points. They made me think about a incident on my boat where I had a fairly experienced guest at the helm. I wasn't paying attention and he violated another boats Starboard tack rights. I first knew something had happened when the boats crossed and the other crew was yelling obscenities (after bearing off to avoid us). Defensively, I flipped them off:eek:, thinking surely my Helmsman couldn't have done anything wrong! Only to find out he had a brain freeze and didn't bother to ask for help. Two fine examples of the male ego gone awry within minutes!
In any event, had the other boat sounded 5 blasts, we could have avoided the whole situation. I understand all the blame rests squarely on my shoulders. Just saying the incident (and a potential collision, had my guy or the other crew panicked) could have been avoided had I been alerted earlier by the other crew.
 
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