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Go Back   SailNet Community > Skills and Seamanship > Seamanship & Navigation
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Seamanship & Navigation Forum devoted to seamanship and navigation topics, including paper and electronic charting tools.


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  #41  
Old 10-16-2012
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Re: who had right away?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticGringo View Post
I was imagining it to be more along the lines of not abiding by the rules as to which side of the road you travel on versus speeding or going slow in a fast lane.

Either way, I agree that working boats deserve their space, and regardless of the rules, I'd rather let them do their thing... I'm here for enjoyment, not to tell some guy making a hard living that he is not following the regulations.

And it sounds to me that blowing 5 blasts with a whistle or horn will make you a target, not get to a solution.

The first question is: What this lobster boat identied itself as a Vessel Engaged in Fishing as defined by the Colregs.

If the answer is "Yes" then you (i.e., the sailboat) is the Give-Way vessel.

If the answer is "No" the next question to be asked is were both vessels in a channel or fairway.

If the answer is "Yes" then was the power vessels greater than 20 meters?

if the answer is "Yes" then the sailboat is Give-Way.

If the answer is "No" then the sailboat is Stand-On;

If the lobster boat did not identify itself as a Vessel Engaged in Fishing, then the sailboat is Stand-On.


If the operator of lobsterboat, for what ever reason, did not see the sailboat but could if he/she was standing in the appropriate part of the vessel, the lobster boat violated Colregs Rule 2,Rule 5 and potentially Rule 7.

If the sailboat was Stand-On and it did move without giving the lobster boat ample opportunity to Give-Way, then the sailboat is is violation of several Rules including Rule 7.

Suggested reading for anyone interested: Farewells Rules of the Nautical Road.
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Last edited by Yamsailor; 10-16-2012 at 11:27 PM.
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  #42  
Old 10-16-2012
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Re: who had right away?

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Originally Posted by captflood View Post
If the vessesl is not engaged in fishing, it is deemed a power driven vessel under the rules and a sailing vessel has right of way.
This is a false statement.

You are correct that the lobster boat in this situation had no special privileges and was the give way vessel. She was legally obligated to stay well clear of the sailing vessel.

You are incorrect in stating that the sailing vessel had "right of way". That phrase does not appear in the rules except ONE situation, downbound on the Western rivers. That was not the case here.

The sailing vessel in this case was the stand on vessel and was OBLIGATED under the rules to MAINTAIN COURSE AND SPEED unless it became necessary to depart from the rules to avoid a collision.

I and others have already pointed out that early action to avoid this whole encounter would have been the best approach from both sides.

It's also been pointed out that in reality not everyone follows the rules.

But if you're in a collision, and you try to claim "right of way" just because you were under sail, you will certainly be found at fault to some degree.
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  #43  
Old 10-31-2012
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Re: who had right away?

I've been wondering, and maybe smallboatlover has been to, is what if you are a sailboat with sails down and engine off sitting there during the day. If you are anchored they have to avoid you, but do you have to put up some kind of symbol to show that you are anchored?

What if you are not anchored but are sitting there with zero wind not moving at all, and you look like you are anchored but are not, do they have to avoid you?

Also, since sailboats can't always maintain the same course and speed, how do you handle that? Just do the best you can and you won't ever be at fault?
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  #44  
Old 10-31-2012
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Re: who had right away?

Quote:
Originally Posted by steel View Post
I've been wondering, and maybe smallboatlover has been to, is what if you are a sailboat with sails down and engine off sitting there during the day. If you are anchored they have to avoid you, but do you have to put up some kind of symbol to show that you are anchored?

What if you are not anchored but are sitting there with zero wind not moving at all, and you look like you are anchored but are not, do they have to avoid you?

Also, since sailboats can't always maintain the same course and speed, how do you handle that? Just do the best you can and you won't ever be at fault?
Anchored vessels may have to show a ball in the fore triangle during the day; at night a 360 white.

If your sails are up, you may be considered not under command, but you need to show 2 balls in the rigging if over 12 meters. If your engine is operational you are NOT not under command.

If you sails are up, you would not look like you are anchored.

In the end, you could be found at fault. Marine accidents tend to have shared responsibility.

You would be considered underway.
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  #45  
Old 10-31-2012
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Re: who had right away?

I agree with jackdale that the responsibility is a shared one.
You have every right to drift your boat most any where you wish, as long as you keep a watch.
In a constricted waterway, this isn't a good decision though.
If the guy that is on a collision course isn't keeping watch, they are derelict in their responsibilitys, in short someone has to be running the boat in a responsible manner.
Situations are varied, I really think that a signal reminder is NOT a bad thing, if used to elicit some response from a boat that otherwise seems to be running unattended, if they complain about that,sorry!
I do remember smallboatlover saying the vessel looked to him , unattended.
Lots of great input here!!
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  #46  
Old 11-01-2012
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Re: who had right away?

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Originally Posted by steel View Post
....If you are anchored they have to avoid you, but do you have to put up some kind of symbol to show that you are anchored?....
If your boat is over something like 40 feet LOA, you are supposed to hoist a black round day shape. I've never seen one in real life on a recreational boat.

If you're motor sailing, you're supposed to hoist an inverted cone. Again, these must be endangered species.
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  #47  
Old 11-01-2012
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Re: who had right away?

Good information, and good discussion.

Still, this is NOT the best place to seek information on Navigation Rules.

Go right to the rules. The book is cheap, and the web site is free. The rules are all written in plain English. You may need to cross-reference and look up a few of the finer details, but there's nothing in there which would require a law degree to figure out.

There is no excuse for operating a vessel of any kind without knowing these rules.
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  #48  
Old 11-01-2012
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Re: who had right away?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jackdale View Post
Marine accidents tend to have shared responsibility.
Tend to? More like, almost always. Why? Because no one has "right of way" in this situation (and certainly not "right away").

There is a "give-way" vessel, and there is a "stand-on" vessel, but in the end BOTH have the responsibility to avoid a collision. If you "stand-on" all the way into a collision, when you could have done something to avoid it, then you are just as much at fault as the "give-way" vessel that didn't.

I think that too many people believe this is like driving a car, and that if they have "right of way" then any accident that happens is going to be considered the other guy's fault. Nope. Doesn't work that way. Not even close.
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  #49  
Old 11-01-2012
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Re: who had right away?

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Originally Posted by denverd0n View Post
Tend to? More like, almost always. Why? Because no one has "right of way" in this situation (and certainly not "right away").

There is a "give-way" vessel, and there is a "stand-on" vessel, but in the end BOTH have the responsibility to avoid a collision. If you "stand-on" all the way into a collision, when you could have done something to avoid it, then you are just as much at fault as the "give-way" vessel that didn't.

I think that too many people believe this is like driving a car, and that if they have "right of way" then any accident that happens is going to be considered the other guy's fault. Nope. Doesn't work that way. Not even close.
I definitely agree with the terminology in this statement. People need to get the phrase "right of way" out of their brains. It seems to cause a mindset of "I'm right, and I'm not going to yield my position until an accident occurrs".

Phrases like "stand-on", "give way", I feel more accurately describe the circumstances and lend to a mindset that BOTH parties are responsible for avoiding a collision, no matter who is "right".
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  #50  
Old 11-01-2012
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Re: who had right away?

Quote:
Originally Posted by smallboatlover View Post
Also i don't feel like making friends with them since every saturday when i got by around 6-7 in the morning there all drinking so i don't feel like dealing with drunks.
I would tell the CG that these guy are operating under the influence, there is no place for that on the water. It may be one reason they did not see you.
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