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You are NOT "FISHING"

21K views 137 replies 35 participants last post by  FSMike 
#1 ·
So this past weekend I'm crewing on a boat that's doing a distance race. Wind is light, almost nonexistent and we're barely keeping the boat moving. I'm down below when I hear yelling back and forth. Seems a local charter boat was out fishing, had their outrigger float (paravanes?) out and were pissed b/c we didn't turn out of there way. Lots of angry words :hothead launched our way, volleyed back by the helmsman trying to explain that A, we were sailing (stand on vessel) and B, we can't move much b/c there is so little wind.

I did discern from one "comment" that they basically thought they were in the rights b/c they were "fishing" and they shouldn't have to move to prevent their gear from being run over. They did eventually pull in the float to miss us.

Now I will say if I'm out sailing around casually, I personally try to avoid folks out fishing as a matter of courtesy. Evidently though these guys saw us (and the other boats around us) well in advance and just chose to troll along basically right at us.

We even had a guy on board who has a 100 ton license and he said there is a real problem w/ these yahoos who seem to think if they have a line out, they are "FISHING". NOT.

Anyone else have this problem?:confused:
 
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#57 ·
Paul

I did not notice any day shapes in the picture. The diamond shape in the "e" is a radar reflector.

Back to the rules. What was your understanding of the ColRegs with respect a "vessel engaged in fishing"?
 
#58 · (Edited)
Paul

I did not notice any day shapes in the picture. The diamond shape in the "e" is a radar reflector.

Back to the rules. What was your understanding of the ColRegs with respect a "vessel engaged in fishing"?
Jack,

IIRC, it was many years ago, about the only "shapes" the local commercial fleet showed was a radar reflector, generally the star shaped sheet sheet metal type. Some of the big drag boats used to have a black drum looking thing in the rigging?

I took the US Power Squadron's navigational course and although the instructor explained all the details he basically said give way to any vessel that is restricted from changing course, be it draft or gear in the water. As mentioned earlier, there are many different gear configurations.

http://www.portofnewport.com/commercial-marina/Fishing vessel config/salmon trollers.pdf

We used a layout similar to the diagram, except we had 6 "fishing lines". Our "float bag" lines were about 100 or so feet back. The other lines were pretty much under the boat. Getting into a big sideways drift or turning sharply was very bad, to be avoided at all costs.

I have had a number of different types of power boats and a Coronado 25 sailboat. Generally speaking, I always consider any other boat somewhat bigger than me to have the right of way. And those restricted by draft or towing, always have it. Maybe not totally correct, but I am still alive.:)

Paul T
 
#59 ·
Paul that black drum would be a basket.

In October, 1996, Inland Rules 26(b)(i), (c)(i), and (d) were changed. The first two changes deleted the alternative basket dayshape.
That diamond shape radar reflector would indicate towing, not fishing. (Rule 24)
 
#62 ·
Paul that black drum would be a basket.

That diamond shape radar reflector would indicate towing, not fishing. (Rule 24)
Ah, a basket, it has been a few years:D Our boat was 36 feet, most of the salmon trollers had the "diamond", multi directional shaped metal item in the rigging, I assume for radar detection as they didn't tow anything but fishing lines. Definitely don't want to get mixed up with drag boats, aka trawlers, as they are very restricted in course change or speed. However, as they operate well off shore they probably don't encounter much traffic, except for ships.

Paul T
 
#60 ·
I sometimes encounter shrimp boats net-fishing off the bottom of Lake Pontchartrain. Never see day shapes, but I do know they can't maneuver very much at all and I behave accordingly. The tell-tale signs are a huge prop wash coming off the stern of a boat that's barely moving, and a really tight strain on the net lines coming off the side blocks.

But not all fishing boats are as obvious as this, nor do all other recreational boats "get it" in my experience. the commercial skippers are usually on the radio and get called by the f/v (sometimes to usually) and they work it out. Most rec. boats don't have, or don't monitor, channel 16 so they don't hear from the f/v til they're *really* close

Tugs and tows, especially on a wire, typically do show day shapes.

In practice, most courteous mariners use the "if it's easier for me to avoid him than vice versa, then I'll do it" method if the Rules of the Road don't give an obvious stand-on/give-way answer. but this is best concluded only after actual comms between vessels to sort it out. Guessing without comms can be dicey because you don't know how the other guy is guessing it.

Some of these situations do devolve down to Rule 2 (the "special circumstances rule"), if the situation isn't crystal-clear enough for the steering and sailing rules. Typical would be a multi-vessel situation developing, where each is arguably burdend as to one and privileged to another, or where evasive action might put you into worse trouble. You have to just "work it out".

Problem is, all this depends on everyone knowing the rules and how they work. Most don't, especially in the weekend boating crowd.


This has been an interesting discussion, and it was good to finally hear from a commercial fisherman. I hope we haven't beat this to death but it does seem there's a lot of misunderstanding on the topic.
 
#63 ·
I sometimes encounter shrimp boats net-fishing off the bottom of Lake Pontchartrain. Never see day shapes, but I do know they can't maneuver very much at all and I behave accordingly. The tell-tale signs are a huge prop wash coming off the stern of a boat that's barely moving, and a really tight strain on the net lines coming off the side blocks.

But not all fishing boats are as obvious as this, nor do all other recreational boats "get it" in my experience. the commercial skippers are usually on the radio and get called by the f/v (sometimes to usually) and they work it out. Most rec. boats don't have, or don't monitor, channel 16 so they don't hear from the f/v til they're *really* close

Tugs and tows, especially on a wire, typically do show day shapes.

In practice, most courteous mariners use the "if it's easier for me to avoid him than vice versa, then I'll do it" method if the Rules of the Road don't give an obvious stand-on/give-way answer. but this is best concluded only after actual comms between vessels to sort it out. Guessing without comms can be dicey because you don't know how the other guy is guessing it.

Some of these situations do devolve down to Rule 2 (the "special circumstances rule"), if the situation isn't crystal-clear enough for the steering and sailing rules. Typical would be a multi-vessel situation developing, where each is arguably burdened as to one and privileged to another, or where evasive action might put you into worse trouble. You have to just "work it out".

Problem is, all this depends on everyone knowing the rules and how they work. Most don't, especially in the weekend boating crowd.

This has been an interesting discussion, and it was good to finally hear from a commercial fisherman. I hope we haven't beat this to death but it does seem there's a lot of misunderstanding on the topic.
My answer to Jack's question about "fishing" was a bit vague. I would guess the regulation's reference to "fishing" would apply to commercial fishing activities that restrict the boat's ability to maneuver? May depend on where it takes place. IIRC, the only commercial fishing activity that takes place in San Francisco Bay is a herring fishery, by gill nets, for a short period of time. If one is in confined water ways with commercial fishing activity present, that could compound the problem.

San Francisco has a large fleet of recreational charter boats operating in and outside the Bay. As they have many lines in the water either drifting or trolling they are somewhat limited in their maneuvering capabilities. When both sports and commercial fishing, I always tried to stay out of their way as much as possible. I guess they could be classified as a "commercial" fisheries?

The individual sports fishing boats have no special "right of way privileges", as far as I know. Bottom line, in my opinion, whether fishing or racing sailboats, is to give others ample room, safety permitting.

Paul T
 
#65 ·
Dabnis, Jack, interesting and useful information in this thread. Can you help me understand the diagram for the fishing trawler? Are there fishing lines suspended under the float bags in addition to the “deep lines” off the outriggers? Am I to assume that there is also a single float line off the stern? How rapidly do these lines “sink” after the float bags? In short, how far back behind do I need to go so I can safely duck a trawler? I see fishing boats running all the time with just their birds out for stability. So, I really need to look for the day shape and for the other fishing gear out? Fortunately, encounters with these types of fishermen are pretty rare for me outside the gate but I still want to be courteous.

On the second day of the Vallejo Season Opener one year, the racing fleet of close to a hundred boats were moving down the Mare Island Straits towards the Sacramento River. A herring trawler cranked up his RPMs to get ahead of the racers and right before the confluence, promptly began to set his nets. As you probably can figure, with the deep channel now blocked off, pandemonium ensued as the fleet squeezed between the nets and the nearby shallow water.

Another time, we were fortunate enough to be leading the race as we approached the windward mark (a government buoy). A guy was fishing right next to the buoy and yelled at us that he had the ROW because he was fishing. I yelled back to him suggesting that he tell the same thing to the twenty odd boats that were hard on my heels. He did move after the third or fourth racer’s close approach.
 
#67 ·
Dabnis, Jack, interesting and useful information in this thread. Can you help me understand the diagram for the fishing trawler? Are there fishing lines suspended under the float bags in addition to the "deep lines" off the outriggers? Am I to assume that there is also a single float line off the stern? How rapidly do these lines "sink" after the float bags? In short, how far back behind do I need to go so I can safely duck a trawler? I see fishing boats running all the time with just their birds out for stability. So, I really need to look for the day shape and for the other fishing gear out? Fortunately, encounters with these types of fishermen are pretty rare for me outside the gate but I still want to be courteous....
You are making the common mistake here of confusing trolling and trawling. Trolling involves dragging lines behind a boat; trawling involves dragging a net behind a boat. While trolling, a vessel is NOT considered to be restricted in its maneuverability (under the COLREGS). While trawling, a vessel IS considered to be restricted in its maneuverability. A boat dragging a half a dozen 300-foot lines is trolling. A boat dragging a 1-meter wide Tucker-trawl (a fancy opening/closing plankton net) is trawling.

The main reason for the distinction under the COLREGS is that trolling lines have very little drag, relative to the power if the boat. A trolling vessel can always speed up and/or turn to avoid another vessel. At the very worst, they can easily cut their lines. A vessel dragging a net cannot easily do any of those things (if you are unfamiliar with such, take a gander at the size of the main winch cable and associated equipment on a stern dragger to get an idea of the forces involved in trawling).
 
#68 ·
Slow, I stand corrected. It is trolling not trawling. My question remains, can someone explain the trolling gear to me and how rapidly does the gear "sink" behind the floats? Can I see the floats as I approach? and how far astern can I safely pass?
 
#70 ·
I can't ever remember seeing any floats until I was very close to a troller. As for how fast the lines sink, that all depends on how the skipper has things configured. Often they fish at a variety of depths until they start getting hits, and then adjust how their lines are set and their trolling speed accordingly.
 
#71 ·
Trolling does not involve floats, at least from I have seen.
 
#72 ·
Sometimes trollers use them. I think it helps to keep the lines separated.
 
#74 ·
All,

Couldn't find a better diagram than this one:

http://www.portofnewport.com/commercial-marina/Fishing vessel config/salmon trollers.pdf

Floats are generally used for the "light" lines. We used to run ours about 100 feet back. They are used to separate the other lines that are basically under the boat.

Generally, if the outrigger poles are down and the boat is moving slowly they are fishing with gear in the water. However some may only have the stabilizers in the water to quiet the motion down and would probably moving faster than trolling speed, around 2 knots for salmon. Trolling speeds for Albacore can be about 5 to 6 knots with lines straight back near the surface.
Albacore fishing is usually in the fall well off shore.

As mentioned earlier it is basically like having 6 downriggers with 6 lines stacked on each one and separated with the outrigger poles and floats on the back lines.



Salmon

So, the "float" lines, which will have about a 10 lb ball on the bottom will pull back maybe at a 45 degree angle is your primary concern. If you see a troller and he is going slow (trolling), he is likely fishing, best to give him all the room you can.:)

Paul T
 
#77 ·
Dabnis, thanks for the info. I did not realize that salmon trollers “only” go 2-3 kts. That greatly increases the possibility that I could be over taking them and not the other way around. So, If I can spot gear and they are doing a slow speed, I, as a courteous sailor, will duck them by about fifty yards if I cannot cross ahead. With salmon stocks depleted along the California coast, my chances of encountering a commercial salmon fisherman is pretty slight – somewhere behind the fear of a whale collision. There are a lot of sport fishermen out there (ie. Duxbury reef), but they don’t have any “rights” over me when I’m under sail.

Slow, where do the albacore and tuna fishermen go to fish down in So Cal? I’ll be “cruising” down there next summer and Mexico the following year. And I know that there are large fleets of commercial fishermen all around down there. If their average trolling speeds are around 6 kts, then the chances of me encountering them is much greater. (Last time we sailed to Cabo, at times we were around 100 NM offshore until we got to Cedros Is.)
 
#79 ·
Dabnis, thanks for the info. I did not realize that salmon trollers "only" go 2-3 kts. That greatly increases the possibility that I could be over taking them and not the other way around. So, If I can spot gear and they are doing a slow speed, I, as a courteous sailor, will duck them by about fifty yards if I cannot cross ahead. ...
I usually give them at least 100 yards. Fifty is probably fine, but better safe than sorry. When I'm sailing and I encounter a troller, I may well have "rights" but I figure that they're working and I'm just playing.
Slow, where do the albacore and tuna fishermen go to fish down in So Cal? I'll be "cruising" down there next summer and Mexico the following year. And I know that there are large fleets of commercial fishermen all around down there. If their average trolling speeds are around 6 kts, then the chances of me encountering them is much greater. (Last time we sailed to Cabo, at times we were around 100 NM offshore until we got to Cedros Is.)
Since they follow the schools around it's hard to say. In general, they tend to stay well off-shore. However, there are times when the commercial fleet is active within just a few miles of the coast. This is true not just for Southern California, but all up and down the West Coast. If you are going to be anywhere near the coast in the summer you're likely to see some commercial boats.
 
#82 ·
Below is from the reference Jackdale provided in his earlier post. Interesting that the commentator says that the master of the vessel must display the lights and shapes in order to claim "fishing vessel" status. For dayshape, two cones with apexes together. I've heard this before but have yet to see it printed from any definitive source.

[COLREGs / Inland] The term "vessel engaged in fishing" means any vessel fishing with nets, lines, trawls, or other fishing apparatus which restrict maneuverability, but does not include a vessel fishing with trolling lines or other fishing apparatus which do not restict maneuverability;

[]Rule3.html As a general rule, this definition includes most commercial fishing vessels (while fishing) and excludes most recreational or sport fishing vessels. The term "lines" in the phrase "fishing with nets, lines, trawls" refers to lines such as long-lines which may be miles long and to which are attached at regular intervals many leaders and hooks. The term "trawls" refers to large open-mouthed nets that are towed through the water by one or two specially equipped fishing vessels (trawlers). Not included in the definition are vessels fishing with trolling lines (for example, a sport fisherman's rod and reel with the line towed astern), which do not restrict maneuverability.

The use of nets, lines, or trawls is presumed to restrict maneuverability while the use of trolling lines is presumed not to restrict maneuverability. The master determines whether the fishing apparatus restricts maneuverability; if a collision occurs, the court may subsequently make the determination. In any case, a master electing to take on vessel-engaged-in-fishing status is required to display the day shapes and lights prescribed by Rule 26.
 
#85 ·
Below is from the reference Jackdale provided in his earlier post. Interesting that the commentator says that the master of the vessel must display the lights and shapes in order to claim "fishing vessel" status. For dayshape, two cones with apexes together. I've heard this before but have yet to see it printed from any definitive source.
You referenced Rule 26 yourself. The word "shall" is prescriptive.

Rule 26 - Fishing Vessels

(a) A vessel engaged in fishing, whether underway or at anchor, shall exhibit only the lights and shapes prescribed in this Rule.

(b) A vessel when engaged in trawling, by which is meant the dragging through the water of a dredge net or other apparatus used as a fishing appliance, shall exhibit:

(i) two all-round lights in a vertical line, the upper being green and the lower white, or a shape consisting of two cones with their apexes together in a vertical line one above the other;
(ii) a masthead light abaft of and higher than the all-round green light; a vessel of less than 50 meters in length shall not be obliged to exhibit such a light but may do so;
(iii) when making way through the water, in addition to the lights prescribed in this paragraph, sidelights and a sternlight.

(c) A vessel engaged in fishing, other than trawling, shall exhibit:

(i) two all-round lights in a vertical line, the upper being red and the lower white, or a shape consisting of two cones with their apexes together in a vertical line one above the other;
(ii) when there is outlying gear extending more than 150 meters horizontally from the vessel, an all-round white light or a cone apex upwards in the direction of the gear.
(iii) when making way through the water, in addition to the lights prescribed in this paragraph, sidelights and a sternlight.

(d) The additional signals described in Annex II to these Rules apply to a vessel engaged in fishing in close proximity to other vessels engaged in fishing.

(e) A vessel when not engaged in fishing shall not exhibit the lights or shapes prescribed in this Rule, but only those prescribed for a vessel of her length.
Navigation Rules Online
 
#87 ·
Is anyone else amazed at how such a simple concept seems to be so hard to grasp for some on this forum?
 
#89 ·
Not really - It took forever over at CF to convince folks that a single-handed sailor cannot up 2 red lights or 2 black balls when sleeping. Nor can they put out a sea anchor and use an anchor light. Not everyone was convinced.
 
#90 ·
Not to sound like a lawyer, but the last phrase in the sentence would indicate the vessel is “engaged in fishing” given the descriptions Dabnis provided for the commercial trollers. The local sport fisherman (even with outriggers) isn’t “fishing”, but a commercial boat with a half dozen downriggers in work, is. You guys may feel free to cut off a commercial guy or run across his gear, but I will maneuver around them, and yes, I do a lot of ocean racing.

“…but does not include a vessel fishing with trolling lines or other fishing apparatus which do not restrict maneuverability.”
 
#92 ·
Not to sound like a lawyer, but the last phrase in the sentence would indicate the vessel is "engaged in fishing" given the descriptions Dabnis provided for the commercial trollers. The local sport fisherman (even with outriggers) isn't "fishing", but a commercial boat with a half dozen downriggers in work, is. You guys may feel free to cut off a commercial guy or run across his gear, but I will maneuver around them, and yes, I do a lot of ocean racing.

"…but does not include a vessel fishing with trolling lines or other fishing apparatus which do not restrict maneuverability."
George - The trollers that I see do not exhibit the dayshapes because they know they are not "engaged in fishing". Paul's boat showed no day shapes.

I do not interfere with their work when I am at play. (Usually I am working too, but there is no dayshape or lights for an vessel engaged in instruction.)

They should be a dayshape and lights for a vessel under the control of someone unaware of ColRegs, perhaps a cone with the apex up. :D
 
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#97 ·
Paul - if you believe that you meet that definition, then you are required to show dayshapes and lights.

And you are correct, the courts will decide.
 
#99 ·
As I indicated to Paul, if you believe that you are within the definition, show the appropriate dayshapes or lights. If there is an incident, the courts will decide, as a friend in the Safe Boating Office told me. The court will usually apportion responsibility rather than having just one guilty party.
 
#100 ·
Well, I don't fish. The issue is that the COLREGs should be clear enough so that any weekend warrior with a fishing pole doesn't believe he is the stand on vessel. I'd write "has the right of way" but don't want you suffer aploplexy. One has to actually read the rules to understand that lines from rods and reels don't count. And the rules don't cover all the apparatus being used today. A clearer defintion is needed.
 
#103 ·
nolatom

I think we require a sound signal for said vessels - maybe 5 long blasts = "My intentions are unclear." Rule 34(d)(i)
 
#105 ·
So, unless we are properly displaying the day shape we are not “engaged in fishing”. If that is the case, if a boater is anchored, but not displaying a black ball, then he is considered as under way (but not under sail) and he must give way if I’m under sail?:eek: Who here has a black ball and for those who do, how many display it? I’m beginning to think that Jack is spending way too much time in the protest room as he is getting way too sea lawyerly on us.:D The main point about the Collregs is for each skipper to understand his rolls and responsibilities in order to avoid collisions and not how best to litigate if one does occur.:)
 
#108 ·
Who here has a black ball and for those who do, how many display it?
The rules excuse vessels under certain lengths and conditions.

25
e) A vessel proceeding under sail when also being propelled by machinery shall exhibit forward where it can best be seen a conical shape, apex downwards. A vessel of less than 12 meters in length is not required to exhibit this shape, but may do so.

30
g) A vessel of less than 20 meters in length, when at anchor in a special anchorage area designated by the Secretary, shall not be required to exhibit the anchor lights and shapes required by this Rule.
 
#106 ·
If a boat violates the COLREGS and no one notices can the skipper's wife still tell him that he's wrong?
 
#109 ·
With Jack around, I'm thinking that having a lawyer on board might not be a bad thing. :rolleyes: Jack, what you are saying is a vessel under 12 meters does not have to display day shapes while motor sailing. Interesting insomuch we all display the steaming light at night, but no one displays the day shape. The second paragraph is saying is vessels under 12 meters and in a special anchorage do not have to display a black ball. It is silent for all other locations which would indicate that said vessel would have to hoist the black ball. I tried like heck to find the special anchorages on a chart but no luck - you have to copy down the coordinates from the Federal Register. If anybody has them on a chart for Northern California, I love to get a copy, As finding a "special anchorage" is nigh impossible (and chances are they are not where we like to anchor), shouldn't we be flying the black ball all the time just to be on the safe side? Lawyer Jack, what say you? :)
 
#110 ·
As finding a "special anchorage" is nigh impossible (and chances are they are not where we like to anchor), shouldn't we be flying the black ball all the time just to be on the safe side?
Special anchorages are marked on the charts. There aren't many.

The answer to your question is yes.
 
#111 ·
Where and how is “special anchorage” displayed on a chart? I’ve tried looking this up on chart #1 and couldn’t find anything. The anchor symbol is for a general anchorage. It can be preceded by an explosives, tanker, number, named, DW, quarantine, reserved, seaplane, or 24 hour symbol. There was no “special” symbol that I could find. Again, logic would dictate, unless a skipper decodes the Federal Register and knows exactly that he is in a “special anchorage” then he should be displaying the ball during the day and an anchor light at night. Just saying. I now yield the floor to my esteemed collogue, the Hon. Jackdale, Esq. ;)
 
#118 ·
#114 · (Edited)
George...you can look at the chart for Richardson Bay...near Sausalito

Chart 18649

The Referance to 110.126a is this:

§ 110.126a San Francisco Bay, Calif.
Richardson Bay Anchorage. That portion of Richardson Bay, north of a line bearing 257° from Peninsula Point to the shore at Sausalito, except for federally-maintained channels, and all channels approved for private use therein.

Note: Mariners anchoring in the special anchorage area should consult applicable ordinances of the Richardson Bay Regional Agency and the County of Marin. These ordinances establish requirements on matters including the anchoring of vessels, placement of moorings, and use of anchored and moored vessels within the special anchorage area. Information on these local agency requirements may be obtained from the Richardson Bay Harbor Administrator.
 
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