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VHF Protocol

13K views 73 replies 24 participants last post by  Goldfinger 
#1 · (Edited)
I was sailing a couple of weeks ago and the Coast Guard and Vessel Assist were extremely busy on Channel 16. This was interesting because conditions were relatively mild. However, listening to them made me think of a couple of questions.
Why don't we use our registration numbers (for non documented vessels) instead of the boats name to communicate on VHF? Saying "Charlie Foxtrot 1034 Sierra Zulu" (could be abbreviated to 1034 once communications are established) would be so much more effective than "Gone Fishin" (for example). Especially for a Mayday. At least the CG could look up who the vessel belongs to and what type of boat it is, if the skipper was unable to transmit any other information. Sometimes, the boats name is so silly, the CG obviously feels silly saying it, so refers to the boat as "Vessel calling coast guard" through the entire conversation!

Also, when issuing Securites, the CG often gives the GPS coordinates of the navigational hazard or vessel in distress, without a landmark. If you are not near a chart this doesn't do you any good. Twice skippers responded to the CG on 16 asking what area the distressed vessel was in, only to discover that were much too far away to help. If the CG gave the Latitude and Longitude and simply added "Off Hunters Point" (for example), it would eliminate this.
Am I missing something?
 
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#2 · (Edited)
Good thoughts, but...

...
Why don't we use our registration numbers (for non documented vessels) instead of the boats name to communicate on VHF? Saying "Charlie Foxtrot 1034 Sierra Zulu" (could be abbreviated to 1034 once communications are established) would be so much more effective than "Gone Fishin" (for example). Especially for a Mayday. At least the CG could look up who the vessel belongs to and what type of boat it is, if the skipper was unable to transmit any other information.
I don't know about you, but I don't have my registration numbers memorized and by the time I fetch the registration card, my boat will have sunk.

The CG watchstanders do not have access to the state registration databases so it's much quicker to use the boat name. Also, for other boaters in the area that hear the mayday, it's usually easier to see the boat name on the side of the boat than the registration numbers. As the boat name is usually more prominent and larger.

And if they DID have access to the database, shortening it to just the numerals as you suggested, won't give them all of the information they'd need to search for the boat in the database (or even to determine which state it is registered in). Just the numerals do not indicate which state for example.

Sometimes, the boats name is so silly, the CG obviously feels silly saying it, so refers to the boat as "Vessel calling coast guard" through the entire conversation!
Yes, well, people's minds aren't usually on what they will sound like on the radio, they're usually more fascinated with their clever boat name to think ahead.

Also, when issuing Securites, the CG often gives the GPS coordinates of the navigational hazard or vessel in distress, without a landmark. If you are not near a chart this doesn't do you any good. Twice skippers responded to the CG on 16 asking what area the distressed vessel was in, only to discover that were much too far away to help. If the CG gave the Latitude and Longitude and simply added "Off Hunters Point" (for example), it would eliminate this.
Am I missing something?
If you punch in the coordinates in your GPS, it will tell you exactly where it is.
 
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#5 · (Edited)
Good thoughts, but...
So "good", you proceed to pick every one apart, except one, on which you accidentally agreed with me!:laugher

I don't know about you, but I don't have my registration numbers memorized and by the time I fetch the registration card, my boat will have sunk.
Do you have the protocol for a Mayday memorized? Not likely if you can't remember your registration ID. Maybe a laminated copy of the Mayday protocol with your reg numbers inserted could be stored by your radio. Probably not a bad idea for most skippers, as we will understandably probably leave something out in our haste.
The CG watchstanders do not have access to the state registration databases so it's much quicker to use the boat name.
Do you know for a fact they don't have access? Hard to believe in this high tech age. What do they do when they find a vessel afloat with no one aboard on Sunday? Wait to call DMV on Monday, not knowing if someone WAS aboard? As with a police stop on land, I'd be surprised if they don't know who it's registered to before they board it.
Also, for other boaters in the area that hear the mayday, it's usually easier to see the boat name on the side of the boat than the registration numbers. As the boat name is usually more prominent and larger.
Having come to the aid of several vessels, I can assure you that by the time you can see a boats name, you usually know it's the boat in question. Generally, you would need to be approach from the stern to see the name, and I would assume it's useless to a CG helicopter. Thats probably why the CG usually asks the skipper to wave something bright to Identify the vessel when they, or another boat is in the area. I've done the same. You want to make sure you are heading for the right boat, long before you can read her name. Especially when your top speed is about 6.5 knots (as in my case!)
And if they DID have access to the database, shortening it to just the numerals as you suggested, won't give them all of the information they'd need to search for the boat in the database (or even to determine which state it is registered in). Just the numerals do not indicate which state for example.
Please review my OP, starting with the "Charlie Foxtrot" part.
Yes, well, people's minds aren't usually on what they will sound like on the radio, they're usually more fascinated with their clever boat name to think ahead.
My point exactly!
If you punch in the coordinates in your GPS, it will tell you exactly where it is.
Thanks, I'm well aware of that.
So....if I'm single handing in a blow (when most boats get into serious trouble and the fewest boats are on the water), you want me to turn on the GPS and enter coordinates I just heard on the radio, while sailing my vessel, only to find out the vessel in distress is 5 miles away?
Help others help you (and the CG). The CG have obviously looked at a chart before issuing the securtie. I think they should simply give a land mark (for bay or coastal situations of course) Sometimes they do, sometimes they don't. Should be SOP IMHO.
 
#3 · (Edited)
The international standards for distress and urgency VHF calls are specified by the ITU for all signatory countries (pretty much all countries are signatories), and they have a provision for using the ship's call-sign .

See ITU Chapter 7

32.13C § 9B 1) The distress call sent on the frequency 156.8 MHz (VHF channel 16)
shall be given in the following form:
- the distress signal MAYDAY, spoken three times;
- the words THIS IS;
- the name of the vessel in distress, spoken three times;
- the call sign or other identification;
- the MMSI (if the initial alert has been sent by DSC). (WRC-07)
Note that use of DSC and the MMSI isn't too common worldwide yet, but it will someday be commonplace to use DSC for distress and urgency calls. DSC equipped radios have a log, and MAYDAY signals cannot be deleted from the log, and the radio beeps loudly until the message has been acknowledged so the excuse "I didn't hear that call" no longer applies - whether intentional or unintentional
 
#6 ·
The international standards for distress and urgency VHF calls are specified by the ITU for all signatory countries (pretty much all countries are signatories), and they have a provision for using the ship's call-sign .Note that use of DSC and the MMSI isn't too common worldwide yet, but it will someday be commonplace to use DSC for distress and urgency calls. DSC equipped radios have a log, and MAYDAY signals cannot be deleted from the log, and the radio beeps loudly until the message has been acknowledged so the excuse "I didn't hear that call" no longer applies - whether intentional or unintentional
I know it's the "done thing", I'm simply questioning it's practicality. I thought I saw it's OK to use the Reg# when I looked into this yesterday. Used far too much time responsing above, I'll look for it later.
 
#9 · (Edited)
Further to your original point, depending upon where you sail, there can be a great deal of interstate and international transit- so using reg numbers as identifiers is sometimes more harmful than helpful.
In any event, if time and brevity is the issue, my boat name is three syllables long- my boat reg number is 14 syllables long.

I can't speak for the CG in your area but here on Erie, the CG always provides a landmark in addition to long lat and gps Coords when issuing a securite or requesting "nearby vessel " assistance.


Regarding procedures, our boat's reg number and our VHF license number are posted on the bulkhead above the VHF. Part of the safety brief before departure for new crew is that everyone knows what it is, where it is , when and how to use it.
 
#10 ·
On board Thane the information posted by the vhf includes name, reg # ,call sign, mmsi, description of vessel and protocol for radio use. This is mandatory for passenger vessels and every trip includes a short lesson for at least one passenger as responsible backup. .Part of my spiel to make responsible boating interesting. When CG responds to your May Day they need more info than "I'm over here"
 
#11 ·
"Saying "Charlie Foxtrot "

Was it PC Barnum who said something about overestimating the average....ahem. I have a friend who swears "Cierra" is spelled with a C, like the car. And any cop will tell you R is for ROBERT not ROMEO. The average civilian has no concept of the international phonetic alphabet, and if you have to stop to think, wait, is it Kweebec, or Kaybeck, or maybe Q is Queen?

Using phonetics outside of trained and practice radio operators is a fast way to create a dog's dinner. Now, the boat name, that they usually know by heart. Not always, but usually. So it is faster and more effective. It really is that simple.
 
#15 ·
Was it PC Barnum who said something about overestimating the average....ahem.
I know that 60% of Americans can't name one Supreme Court justice, but you really don't think they can handle this?
The NATO phonetic alphabet: Alpha, Bravo, Charlie, Delta, Echo, Foxtrot, Golf, Hotel, India, Juliet, Kilo, Lima, Mike, November, Oscar, Papa, Quebec, Romeo, Sierra, Tango, Uniform, Victor, Whiskey, X-ray, Yankee, Zulu
And any cop will tell you R is for ROBERT not ROMEO
.
Why is that? It's not macho to say Romeo? If I'm sinking, I'll be yelling Romeo, Romeo, where for art thou Romeo?, if it will bring the Calvary!:)
Using phonetics outside of trained and practice radio operators is a fast way to create a dog's dinner. Now, the boat name, that they usually know by heart. Not always, but usually. So it is faster and more effective. It really is that simple.
Really? Well apparently things just got really complicated. I just figured out we are supposed to say both! Now I've done it, sorry!
 
#16 ·
"I know that 60% of Americans can't name one Supreme Court justice, but you really don't think they can handle this?"
I don't think it, I know it. Worked with communications and "communicatees" for too long.
"Why is that? It's not macho to say Romeo?" A big part of the problem is that the ITU is for "furriners". Here in the US the main "official" use of radio, outside of the airlines, is by cops and firemen, and THEIR idiosynchratic phonetics use "common" names like Bob, David, Edward Frank Mary Robert.
So the public has been trained (by Hollywood or whatever else they heard) to a local alphabet which is almost always in conflict with the ITU. And The Blue Wall refuses to shift to the ITU.
Remember, this is the same public that thinks texting while drunk driving is an acceptable standard of operation. They're just not going to Kaybeck Zooloo at you.

What did Mark Twain say about teaching a pig to play the piano? All you're going to do, is upset the pig?

Actually, since most boaters KNOW the boat name, and don't know the ITU, everyone remains in conformance with the National Incident Management System (NIMS) and the Incident Command System (ICS) which are the US standards for emergency operations, by "avoiding the use of jargon" which is what the ITU phonetics can be. NIMS trumps ITU.

And that USCG reference to transmitting a distress alarm on 2182? Now that's a crime, since all official stations were told to stop monitoring it some years ago. The use of 2182 has been formally obsoleted and ended. Internationally.
 
#17 ·
I used to talk on radios as part of my daily job (military aircraft,) and on top of all the various formats and procedures was the requirement to COMMUNICATE. I've seen people stammer and sweat trying to use a particular format, when they could just use plain English to pass the necessary information.

In an emergency, if I was not able to recall the proper format for a mayday, I would take care to include in my first transmission my identification (any ID suitable for establishing a back-and-forth conversation,) location (using landmarks, plus lat and long if available,) and nature of emergency. If I was in extremis I would add the number of people aboard.
 
#31 · (Edited)
I've seen people stammer and sweat trying to use a particular format, when they could just use plain English to pass the necessary information.
Ain't it the truth! I've heard some really funny examples of this. Then there are the people who simply give too much information. There is a Vessel Assist skipper in my area who really needs to cut back on the Red Bull! The CG thanked him for coming to the aid of a kayaker the other day on 16 and he went off on a diatribe. I could just imagine the CG looking at each other, thinking "Why did we say anything?". He obviously spends a lot of time by himself on the boat and likes to talk! :)
 
#18 ·
You know,
If I was in a mayday situation and I am having difficulty trying to clarify the name of my boat to the person who is supposed to be helping me, and I have yet to clarify my boats size, discription, colour, position, helpful landmarks, number of people on board, estimated time afloat, available safety gear, etc.
I hope I would also have the presents of mind to ask if I could speak to somebody who understands *#!%@^! english a little better.:laugher
 
#20 ·
I'm retired from the Army Signal Corps and have used the phoenetic alphabet all my adult life, including with my wife when needed. Recently I was driving her car and the sepentine belt exploded leaving me stranded at rush hour on one of the busiest highways in San Antonio between two of the busiest off ramps in the whole city (the airport and I410) . Needless to say the noise level was deafening. I called her to arrange a tow with the insurance company and when she called back to give me the name and number of the tow, I could barely hear her over the traffic noise. When I asked her to repeat something, her first effort was to speak more loudly thereby overmodulating the phone resulting in garbage on my end. When she resorted to spelling, her phoenetic alphabet was like something from a montessori preschool song. She made cees sound like tees and gees sound like vees.
I think this is a good example of what might occur during a real live Mayday call. At least she can say the name of our boat and maybe be able to get the lat/long off the gps, but who knows? Excitement and emotion certainly clouds the airwaves.
Will be nice when DSC is the norm.
Also, I think the CG includes all the items it would be nice to know, but if some are left out they will surely try to locate you and send whatever assistance they deem appropriate.
John
 
#21 ·
Also, I think the CG includes all the items it would be nice to know, but if some are left out they will surely try to locate you and send whatever assistance they deem appropriate.
John
Thanks, for the post. I would have "Liked" it, but seem to have lost that capability!
The problem is that usually I hear the CG ask about the items anyway, one by one. The back and forth drives me crazy and I'm not even involved. IMO, best to get them on the table first (time permitting of course). Though, somehow I suspect the CG will probably still ask them anyway, one by one!
 
#24 · (Edited)
Why don't we use our registration
numbers
<<snip>>
Especially for a Mayday.
<<snip>>
Sometimes, the boats name is so silly, the CG obviously feels silly saying it, so refers to the boat as "Vessel calling coast guard" through the entire conversation!
<<snip>>
Am I missing something?
I dunno, I have heard the CG hail "breaking wind", "blue-bayou" and a dozen other stupid boat names. I disagree that they call "vessel hailing the CG" simply because they believe a name is "silly". I am almost certain that there is a protocol that dictates the usage of vessel name versus the generic response. I think the DSC / MMSI equipped radios will begin to address some of your concerns. In the meantime, I imagine there are opportunities to address rule-making authorities about the way the CG utilizes, and the FCC proscribes utilization of VHF frequencies. I don't know that anyone on SN really can make a difference (kind of reminds me of the Evans / AIS fiasco currently ongoing at CF)
.02
 
#26 ·
Oh believe me, if I thought I could change anything regarding the CG, the effort wouldn't be wasted on this issue. I'd have much bigger fish to fry. Just a discussion.
However, hence forth, I deem the name of my vessel to be: Charlie Foxtrot 1386 Sierra Zulu. That will guarantee they address me as: "Vessel hailing Coast Guard". :)
 
#27 ·
For whatever little it is worth, the CG always gives an approximate landmark location after the lat/long around here. There was an epirb going off in the northern part of the Bay this past weekend and they indicated as much. I don't think I have literally ever been out on the water around here, without hearing at least one pan-pan or securite call. I guess that's a symptom of so many boats around these parts.

Also, I often hear them ask if the caller has a cell phone, before anything else.
 
#28 ·
"I disagree that they call "vessel hailing the CG" simply because they believe a name is "silly". I am almost certain that there is a protocol that dictates the usage of vessel name versus the generic response."

There IS a very simple protocol. First, understand that radio watchstanders are sometimes civilian volunteers, sometimes ham radio operators, who have been recruited to supplement the understaffed stations. But the protocol is very simple. When the radio operator says "WTF? What was that name?" you will get a return call of "Vessel hailing..." either because they couldn't understand you, or the signal was too weak, or someone said "WTF did he say?" for whatever reason.

The request for a cell phone is also common protocol. The USCG has a very limited number of working channels and if they want to keep those free, they need to move the traffic elsewhere. Although it pays to make sure "Bars bars, who's got three bars?" before you assume you can switch to a cell phone.

The USCG are the best in the business. There's usually a rationale behind their actions.
 
#29 ·
Where I live one needs a "Restricted Operator Certificate (Maritime)" to legally talk on the VHF. Part of that course is the phonetic alphabet.

So, in theory anyway, there might be someone on board who has at least heard of it and knew it enough to pass the practical verbal part of the exam.

And I agree that your CG (and ours) are the best out there!

We also often are cruising in the Bay of Fundy and we have "Fundy Traffic" - sort of like air traffic control for the water. We always contact them when entering their areas, we call in at the checkpoints and we close out when we pass through. They are a delight, they don't want to chat - just want to know where you are and warn you of anything you might need to know around you.

One time, about five minutes after securing our boat to the wharf at Market Slip we got a very polite call reminding us to call them when we were secure.
Oooops.
I thanked them just as politely.

Rik
 
#30 ·
[
QUOTE=hellosailor;1033183]"I disagree that they call "vessel hailing the CG" simply because they believe a name is "silly". I am almost certain that there is a protocol that dictates the usage of vessel name versus the generic response."
I'm only assuming that was their motive, as everytime I've heard it done, I've heard the boat name (from the Skipper) and it was really silly. However, I can assure you it does happen.
The USCG are the best in the business. There's usually a rationale behind their actions.
I appreciate what the CG does, and usually they are professional. However, I've seen several examples where they were simply over zealous kids with (our) very expensive toys. I've also heard CG radio communications that were laughable. The newbie, volunteer status of the operators several of you have mentioned probably explains this.

Regarding stupid boat names. This weekend, I heard a Ferry attempting to contact sailing vessel "Criminal Mischief" on 16 to determine intentions. After several attempts, the Ferry signed off with obvious contempt, saying "No Contact...learn the rules of the road CRIMINAL MISCHIEF!":laugher
I thought later: "If I'm CG looking for a boat to board and I see two vessels, "Peggy Sue" and "Criminal Mischief"...Who shall I board? Hmmmm
 
#33 ·
I sail the 100+ mile long Lake Champlain. Other than the state registration bow #, 50% of the boats I see have no vessel name affixed and of those 50%, the font is so stylized, even at 50 yards - it's still unintelligible.

Of those that can be seen/read, many cannot be spoken, e.g. "Faux de casa," "Reconistration," "Sphinxster."

With binocs, bow numbers are never styled, always in the same place and visible equally from both sides.

My 2-cents ;)
 
#35 ·
I think you're confusing apples an oranges, Zeek.

Bow numbers are usually required by state registration laws and specificed as arabic numberals of a certain height and type that people buy "off the shelf" which also means a limited font selection.

Transom art, including names, is entirely optional and extra for those folks, much like your choice of socks. Argyle, tube, whatever, that's unregulated.

Except for the folks who have documented vessels, and there's a limited use to that for folks who will mainly keep and sail a boat in one lake. Folks with documented vessels have different and fairly simple requirements as to the legibility of transom names, and "illegible" is flat out illegal for documented vessels. Not that I'd expect the USCG to care much in a lake, even in a big lake. Their priority will be BWI and potty checks.

But one is apples the other oranges, two different sets of rules apply.
 
#36 ·
No apples and oranges here. Just stating known observations.

Been sailing for 50 years and can count the number of vessels with no state required bow alpha-numerics - on one hand.

True, I've only sailed the Atlantic from the Chesapeake to Block Island via Pt. Pleasant, NJ and a few large NY/NJ/PA/VT lakes, not counting a two-day-sail in the FL keys, but I can only tell you what my experience has been - and a rational argument as to why boat names are inconsistently a bad ID choice (at best) - while State mandated bow alpa-numerics are overwhelmingly superior forms of ID.

In that rare instance where the boat is in fact "named" - and that name is legible, easy to enunciate, spell and on all three sides of the hull, always use the boat name for ID.

My experience suggests, that is rarely the case.

Lest we forget, a Winesap and Mac are both apples;)
 
#37 ·
No apples and oranges here. Just stating known observations.

Been sailing for 50 years and can count the number of vessels with no state required bow alpha-numerics - on one hand....

Lest we forget, a Winesap and Mac are both apples;)
But your last post was talking about sailing on a lake and I believe that's what hellosailor responded to. If you're introducing your experience offshore, then yes, there are a mix of both.
 
#38 · (Edited)
I was speaking of my experience and observations, using Lake Champlain, as just one illustration, to make my point.. BTW, Lake Champlain is international water.

Part of the lake is in Canada and one can (and many do) sail from NYC Harbor to the Atlantic - via the St. Lawrence Seaway, a canal system, and traverse Lake Champlain, all 100+ miles of it, to get there.

Offshore, onshore, lakes or in your garage; boat names vs. state registration bow alpha-numerics are the topic - not what waters they're found in - or why.
 
#40 ·
I don't now what Vermonts rules are with respect to naming a State registered boat, but with clear block registration numbers, one would think the naming convention is less precise.

USCG documented vessels must carry a name not more than 33 characters long, at least 4" tall and it must be legible. I dare say that most boats in my marina are documented and, therefore, have no state registration numbers. None are illegible that I've noticed.
 
#41 ·
I'm an amateur radio operator and we use phonetics and callsigns without issue for the most part. I'm not certain what my registration numbers are, but if required, I would certainly memorize them. I know some people first, by their callsigns instead of names. The importance of phonetics, and it really doesn't matter much if you don't know the "official" phonetics, is clarity of the message. We train for and pass important emergency traffic. Sometimes that traffic is passed three or four times before it gets where it needs to go. Specific formats for messages are important to retain the original intent. I have called nets where people use goofy phonetics for their callsigns, but never does it interfere with the communication. Practice is what makes good radio operators.
 
#42 ·
Again, how many people here, have boats that do not have state assigned numbers?

Then too, the shear numbers of boats, by size, would likely result in there being a thousand boats under 30-feet for every ten that are over.

The hair involved in the documented boat registrations are legendary. Sales and or excise tax when selling, being the principal nightmare.

But it is still done, but almost always on ocean going vessels
 
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