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  #131 (permalink)  
Old 10-21-2006
rockDAWG rockDAWG is offline
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That is a good one, Camarderie. Note to self: Learn to ride a horse, but don't nned to buy one .

Before I head out to the big pond, I am sure I will learn to use sextant effectively. Hand held GPS is relatively cheap. By the time I am able to play in the ocean, I am sure there are plenty of used GPS (handheld) for next to nothing. I will stock these old GPS’ in every corner of the boat. I certainly will exhaust my GPS option before I use sextant.

Will carry a sextant with me? Absolutely.
I will also carry at least a few pairs chopsticks or pencils just in case I need to make my own sextant similar to that of Steven Callahan


The will to survive precedes all.

We are heading out to do more "heave to" and "figure eight" this afternoon. Cheers.
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  #132 (permalink)  
Old 10-22-2006
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Learned CN 30 years ago. Have used the same sextant for 30 years. Lots of sea miles. Never owned a GPS. It's not self-contained.
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  #133 (permalink)  
Old 10-23-2006
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D.Mancini wrote: "Never owned a GPS. It's not self-contained"

Yah...let's see...GPS fits in my pocket and tells me where I am in any weather within 30 yards in less tha 30 seconds and I can be steering the boat or handling sails or dealing with heavy seas at the same time. Sextant has special protective box to protect sensitive mirrors and alignment, then must have accurate timekeeping device (like a GPS!) must bring several volumes of tables and be sure to keep them preserved and dry. Then must do extensive calculations requiring writing instrument and dry paper and hope it is sunny out so I can find where I am within 3 miles if I am really good and don't make any silly errors. What a neat self contained system the sextant is!
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  #134 (permalink)  
Old 10-23-2006
sailaway21 sailaway21 is offline
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But Reliable

I have no hope of changing Camaraderie's opinion on celestial navigation of the optical variety; although I do believe I could, with a little work, get him down to a couple hundred yards in accuracy with the old ham-bone!
We've mostly fought this battle out, but I think that a two hundred year history of reliability should not be overlooked. Nobody gives that kind of warranty on any electronic device!
Note for anyone starting out. You can acquire a pocket nav. calculator that has the Nautical almanac and 229 tables internalized. Takes about 15 sec to reduce your sight to a LOP. You can produce a great circle route in about the same amount of time. Damn, I used to get 2 hours overtime pay for that! Of course, for reliability you'll want to learn sight reduction using 229. I own a pocket navigational computer-I'm not against progress. I've just found that if I ever need to ride a horse it helps to not only own a horse, but to have ridden one before!
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  #135 (permalink)  
Old 10-23-2006
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Sailaway... I was merely commenting on the "self-contained system"! I have nothing against people learning and using celestial any more than those who learn to ride horses to keep the analogy going.
I do find it interesting that many of those who pooh pooh the GPS because of its' reliance on batteries, use pocket computers and time pieces which have the same reliance. As to ....
"I could, with a little work, get him down to a couple hundred yards in accuracy with the old ham-bone!"

EDIT...see next post as for some reason I could not finish within this note.

Last edited by camaraderie : 10-23-2006 at 12:05 PM.
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  #136 (permalink)  
Old 10-23-2006
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continued....
The author of cruising world's 2000 article on celestial wrote this:

What I’d hoped to accomplish is to give the readers realistic expectations from sights taken at sea in a small boat. The half-mile accuracy expected from merchant-marine navigators is reasonable from the stable deck of a large ship. But telling CW readers that they can obtain such results from sights on small boats in a seaway is, in my view, misleading.
Of course, my sights could have been more accurate. That said, however, I’ve taken hundreds of sights at sea aboard my 32-footer. I’m not an expert, but I’ve always reached my destination.
I’ve kept my logbooks from that pre-GPS period, with all my sights and their intercepts. With my metal sextant the accuracy of my sights varied from one to 20 miles. With my plastic sextant the accuracy of my sights varied a bit more—up to 25 miles. In rough weather, it’s always been quite difficult to obtain any sight with accuracy better than 10 miles.

What I resent is the implication of SOME here that anyone who goes to sea without a sextant is somehow un-safe. The reality is that anyone who goes to sea without multiple GPS's and batteries is unsafe. If you want to bring your sextant along...fine. I'll bring my accordion and be just as safe. I have nothing but admiration for those who have taken the time to learn and use celestial to keep the art alive.

Last edited by camaraderie : 10-23-2006 at 12:17 PM.
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  #137 (permalink)  
Old 10-23-2006
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What I resent is the implication of SOME here that anyone who goes to sea without a sextant is somehow un-safe. The reality is that anyone who goes to sea without multiple GPS's and batteries is unsafe.
camaraderie, how many GPS's are required to be safe?

I don't think CN will ever be obsolete, just like I don't think paper charts and magnetic compasses will ever be obsolete. I'm not against new technology either, matter of fact I love all the new electronic gadgets. I think they make navigation a lot more convenient. I have a fancy electronic hand bearing compass for coastal LOP's, a GPS tied into a laptop computer with the most current charts, I even keep a cordless drill on the boat.

I also have paper charts, protractors, paper copies of tide and current tables, a magnetic hand bearing compass, a sextant that I can use with the method that only requires a nautical almanac and an old fashion hand powered crank drill. I love the electronics but I've seen Murphy's law illustrated too many times to ignore it. I fried one fancy electronic hand bearing compass when I went in the drink with it in my pocket, my hard drive on my laptop crashed this summer while cruising Desolation Sound and the darn battery on my cordless drill always seems to be dead when I want it most. So from my point of view, having all the fancy stuff is great, but there ought to be some redundancy with the non-high tech tools as back up, even if it's not as accurate and not as convenient. I like the idea of a second GPS and spare batteries for redundancy too and I'm sure I'll have a GPS for my ditch bag. But to rely on it solely for a backup means I'm relying on all the links in a complex chain that I have no control over. I just like the idea of being more self reliant than that and I think that's a pretty common trait among people who go out on big waters in little boats.
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  #138 (permalink)  
Old 10-24-2006
sailaway21 sailaway21 is offline
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Reliability

I find what erps posted a little more convincing. The point I was making previously centers around reliability. The only item subject to failure, in celestial navigation, is the chronometer, and if it is a wound chronometer, that is extremely unlikely. Damage to the sextant is either repairable (mirrors) or correctable at sea. To be of any use, one must periodically check their sextant's accuracy and this is done at sea. A sextant that has taken a fall can be checked and compensated for. Precision instuments, such as sextants and chronometers are not judged on their perfection of measurement, but their consistency. A chronometer that gains a second a day is just fine. One that is erratic is junk. A sextant with fifty-five seconds of error is fine; we apply it to our sight reduction. We even have a correction for user error! Some navigators will be "off" by a number of seconds than another using the same instrument! We tabulate this through consistent practise, shooting from known positions, and comparing with other mates.
The rest of the "system" is most reliable due to it's lack of dependence on human factors. GPS is subject to human and mechanical error. Multiple units on board reduce, if not eliminate, receiver error. That is, if you are taking fixes with both units at the same time. If you are not, how will you know there is an error, your unit doesn't tell you it's on the fritz. So you really need three units, just to verify one unit! Geostationary satellites aren't. At 28,500 miles they are 1/10th the distance of the moon, the least accurate celestial body. Small errors in a satellites position will result in inaccuracy of a large sort-we rely on humans to monitor this. Your receiver does not tell you if they are. GPS relies on radio waves, which are much more subject to interference than are light rays. We've already discussed the political errors posible in GPS, ie...the Feds pull the plug. I'm not saying that any of these things are even likely, but they are possible sources of error or lack of position finding. CN is inherently error free and so it is more reliable.
There are some misconceptions on the practise of celestial navigation. One of the biggest is the need for more than two bodies at am/pm stars. Two are all that are needed for an experienced navigator, preferably close to 90 degrees apart. In poor conditions, we pre-calculate our altitude and azimuth, and instead of a slow, exact shot; we take a snap-shot. Actually, experienced navigators take a snap-shot even in good conditions because they are experienced. It does take practise, in stable conditions, to get good at this. But we learn to drive a car in the day and in the dry before we try the snow too.
When one's electronics fail, for whatever reason, you're lost and if CN is an art-form try dead-reckoning for days on a sailboat. With a sextant alone, no chronometer, you can parallel sail, as did Columbus and the ocean navigators prior to accurate time keeping. The knowledge of latitude alone is a huge benefit to the ocean navigator. With merely an ocean chart, he can determine whether he'll make land at Bishop Rock or Gibralter. The navigator with broken electronics has only the snow on deck to tell him he's closer to Bishop Rock than the Gib!
Now as to your ascertation that anyone going to sea without GPS is unsafe. This is just not true. Radar is a far more useful electronic device than GPS. Offshore, I am happy if I know within a couple of miles of where I am at. And, if I can't get a fix for a couple of days that's OK too. Traditionally, the only fix logged was the noon fix, a running fix of the sun and perhaps Venus. All of the trouble is when I get near land and radar is far superior to any other form of navigation, other than gyro-stabilized bearings, in that instance.

In my twenty years at sea, it was not at all uncommon to encounter yachts with far more sophisticated navigational equipment than what was on the bridge of my ship. The difference was, that when the electronics went on the fritz, we sailed on in confidence of finding our destination.
Celestial navigation is an art, and while frustrating to some, it is not an archaic art. As navigators, professional and amateur alike, we must always evaluate our position based on the best information available. And, if little is available, we must go back to the fundamental "this I know to be true" and pilot our vessel accordingly. The sea demands it.
I would be remiss if I did not state that I have the utmost regard for Camaraderie and his posts. I make a point of reading them whether they are on a topic of interest or not. I am also sure that he is a consciencious and good navigator. But others read our posts, and I feel that our differences, while perhaps philosophical, could lead others into a false sense of security and not exercise the due diligence that Camaraderie has.

Best regards,
Guy
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  #139 (permalink)  
Old 10-24-2006
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ERPS...At 60 bucks apiece i'm not worried about redundancy! I have four right now and in 5 years of full time cruising the only time ONE failed was when the antenna was swept away by Ivan for my plotter. The 3 others have never failed and antennas are internal so I am unconcerned. 2 backups are kept in Pelican cases with 36 packs of AA batteries so an accurate position in any circumstance is simply not a concern I have. Opinions obviously differ!
Sailaway...thanks for the kind words. Your points (and everyone else's I think!) have been well made and we obviously differ since I believe the day GPS fails we'll have other things to worry about...(can you say Armageddon??) Anyway...I think this topic is about exhausted so I'm gonna bow out here unless someone has something new to add. See y'all on other topics.

Last edited by camaraderie : 10-24-2006 at 12:22 AM.
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  #140 (permalink)  
Old 10-24-2006
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Again, I must stress that extreme accuracy with a sextant is generally unnecessary. Sextants are generally used for bluewater passages, and if you're 300 miles from land, being off by a mile or two isn't really an issue.

The real problem I have with GPS and the reliance on them... is that you are relying on another person's interpretation of the data, and the icon on the screen is not an accurate representation of where you are in the world, but a estimate of where you are in a cartographer's rendition of the world, and subject to errors and variables that you can not control or see.

At least with a sextant, you can't pretend to be accurate to 20 feet, and hopefully will take proper precautions for the inaccuracies of the instrument and methods.

Proper navigation requires more than fancy electronics... the Gipsy Moth IV had GPS and yet ran aground on a fairly clearly charted and well know reef. Hmm... Traditional navigation skills, including celestial navigation, dead reckoning, and pilotage are all necessary. GPS is an adjunct to other navigation skills, not a panacea and replacement for them. The Mark I eyeball is still the most important of all the navigation instruments.
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