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  #191 (permalink)  
Old 07-18-2007
sailaway21 sailaway21 is offline
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You guys are probably not going to like the trend the Magnetic Variation thread has taken then, especially you kennya.(g)
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  #192 (permalink)  
Old 07-18-2007
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How did that turn from magnetic variation into another "GPS is great" discussion?
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  #193 (permalink)  
Old 07-18-2007
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Does someone here hold a lot of Garmin stock???? Is that it?
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  #194 (permalink)  
Old 07-18-2007
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LOL...ain't thread drift great...
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You know what the first rule of sailing is? ...Love. You can learn all the math in the 'verse, but you take
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If you're new to the Sailnet Forums... please read this POST.

Still—DON'T READ THAT POST AGAIN.
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  #195 (permalink)  
Old 07-19-2007
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I'm half way across the Atlantic....now how does this crazy sextant thingy work again????

It don't matter...it is cloudy today!
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  #196 (permalink)  
Old 07-19-2007
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I first learned celestial navigation from an old family friend who was a WWII veteran. He was a British bomber pilot in the war and they used the night sky to navigate long flights during bombing raids. He was trained in a simulator where a domed roof, covered in stars, would move overhead as his simulated plane flew around inside a great big building, (at least that's how I visualized his explanation as kid). He was an unbelievable navigator; we'd go out and sail all night, listening to war stories and practicing our calculations. You don't find too many old school guys like that anymore.
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  #197 (permalink)  
Old 07-19-2007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by camaraderie
I'm half way across the Atlantic....now how does this crazy sextant thingy work again????

It don't matter...it is cloudy today!

Thats right Cam, you're right.

I can bet that a lot of new sailors on this site take your posts pretty seriously. And why not, you have a big beautiful boat, and you've already travelled to places they are still dreaming of. Maybe you can influence some of them enough to believe that they should rely on GPS alone and forget such arcane things as a compass and paper charts. Maybe one day one of these unfortunate new sailors will be killed because their wiz bang GPS bit the dust and that was all they had onboard. "But Cam said all I need is GPS" will be what they are thinking as they sink to the bottom because they ran dead into a reef on the approach into an anchorage. Why did they run dead into a reef? Because the GPS failed and they never learned how to use a compass and pilot with TVMDC and a (gasp) paper chart. Forget even celestial nav, you're on another thread saying you'd rather have a GPS than a compass.............Right. Hopefully newer sailors don't take to much stock in that advice. You claim that people are hunting for you on these threads, I wonder why?
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  #198 (permalink)  
Old 07-19-2007
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Sapper...you are taking things much too seriously.
But to BE serious for a minute on CELESTIAL...I mean EVERYTHING I've said.
It is a completely unnecessary art and NO ONE needs celestial to safely cross oceans these days but one SHOULD carry multiple cheap GPS's with plenty of batteries. They provide MORE safety and accuracy than the BEST Celestial navigation AND are usable in all weather. I recognize that others disagree with me on this...but the vast majority of people crossing oceands today do not have Celestial skills and I think it is unwise to suggest to newbies that they MUST have these skills to be safe. They could better spend their time preparing themselves and their boats for their plans.

On the COASTAL nav thread...I believe I have given ample notice that I am in large part tweaking the people who overwhelm a simple newbie request for a definition with undigestible amounts of information on plotting/compass skills that all that info is simply overwhelming especially when the GPS is available. I like my charts and my protractor and my compass and would not sail without them. Nor would I sail without my GPS.
But IF it came down to a choice between my liquid compass and my GPS I would choose my GPS because
1. It will tell me where I am.
2. It will tell me what heading I am on.
3. It will get me exactly where I want to go.
I HAVE had the fluid leak out of my compass in my cruising rendering it uusable yet I was still able to navigate quite safely with my GPS. I have never had a GPS fail and always have at least TWO on.
And I will thank you NOT to put words into my mouth as I have ALWAYS and CONSISTENTLY said that paper chats and plotting my course on paper are an ESSENTIAL part of my navigation. AND...I have consistently railed against the dangers of relying on CHARTPLOTTERS which some confuse with GPS.

If you don't like my methods...fine...but I am convinced that those who use my methods are WAY safer than those who rely on traditional methods alone AND that there is absolutely NO need to learn Celestial in this day and age and the Naval Academy apparently agrees with me!
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  #199 (permalink)  
Old 07-19-2007
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Being relatively serious for a moment I actually do disagree here.

There is Celestial and then there is Celestial.

I do agree you don't really have to have a 1000$us sextant on board when you have GPS. It is very expensive and I think that is the single point that makes people decide not to carry it. I mean, let's face it, if a good sextant cost 20$us, of course everyone would carry one as a backup. It's the price of a good one that keeps a lot of people from carrying one because they know they can buy 5 GPS receivers for the same amount and it does "the same thing". And that's fine, price/benefit analysis ... whatever.

However ...

Using a sextant to get a precise lat/long is NOT all there is to Celestial.

Celestial navigation is also being able to look up into the sky and find Polaris and know that you're looking north. Simple, effective, easily double checks your compass, and is just basic common sense that you should know where Polaris is in the sky.

Celestial navigation is being able to use whatever you have on board to measure the angle up to Polaris, because that angle IS your latitude. For me I always carry a small compass that has a second free moving needle that I can measure angles with. I use it to measure angles for bridges and things so that I can calculate how high they are with a little trig. But I can also measure the angle up to Polaris with it to within a degree, so as long as I can see the stars at night I can figure out to within a degree or so what my latitude is in this hemisphere. So easy you'd be crazy not to know how to do that. I mean without any instruments at all you can hand draw a 90 degree angle, divide that into 2 45's, further divide that, etc, and use that to figure out the angle of Polaris and know what your latitude is within a few degrees. Then without a single instrument you can sail latitudes if you know the latitude of anything. I mean that's just basic stuff there, everyone on a boat in an ocean should be able to do that.

Celestial navigation is knowing the latitude of a few important stars. Why ? Because if you know the latitude of Vega for example then you always have some idea where you are if Vega is visible. If it's a little south of you in the sky at it's zenith then you are north of it's latitude. If it's a little north, you are a little south. If it's directly overhead then you know what your latitude is. Simple as that. And there are enough stars like that so that if you actually knew a bunch of them you'd pretty much always roughly know your latitude with a casual glance upwards at night.

Celestial navigation is just learning the constellations and stars and using the sky to find your position so that you develop a kind of feeling for it. After a while you don't even have to figure out which stars are which, etc, you just kind of look up and know where you are. Kind of like being in your hometown, you don't have to figure out how to get to your favorite fast food joint, you just know where it is, and it can be the same with the sky over a period of time.

Those are just a very few basic ways you can use Celestial navigation, but that's only the tip of the iceberg. There's the southern cross in the south, there's using star paths, there is the watching two stars settle on the horizon at the same time, measuring arcs between stars with your hands, and just a huge wealth of things you can do just by using the stars with a little bit of practice.

And if all that is at all interesting, sure, you can get some gear and do more ...

Celestial navigation is keeping a few watches around and setting them before a journey so that you always have GMT time. Why ? Because GMT time IS your longitude. If you have GMT there are a lot of ways to get your longitude, and if you don't have it then there is basically no way at all to get your longitude if you don't have GPS. If you have a watch you can get GMT from the radio and various other ways, but without GPS you have to have time. Once you have time you can take a really rough sight off of any star, the Sun, moon, all kinds of things with homemade equipment and get a rough idea of your lat/long.

Just being able to use GMT time to find your longitude using the time of sunrise or sunset is a basic skill everyone should know as far as I am concerned. I mean it's so easy to do and the information is so valuable I just don't see any reason not to learn how to do that. That's a basic survival skill on a boat and I think it's negligent not to know how to figure your longitude in at least one way with GMT if you are out of sight of land. You don't need a sextant to calculate a rough lat/long so there is no excuse for not knowing how to do it when a quartz watch costs like 5$us.

And sure, Celestial navigation is having a sextant if you want one. Mine cost 40$us and is just a cheap plastic thing I ordered from West Marine. Why ? Because I have the same basic feelings about "Celestial navigation" as a lot of people do - I don't want to spend 1000$us on a delicate sextant. And I know that I can find my position pretty precisely (though maybe not as precisely) with the cheapest of sextants. It'll be more difficult to take a site, etc, but with some patience it can be done.

So anyway, I do disagree that Celestial navigation is too old school to bother with. There is a lot of good stuff in there that I think any sailor would want to know even if it's just as a convenience. Certainly something like knowing where Polaris is, that's just basic common sense. If you're out on the deck you don't want to have to walk all the way over to look at a compass just to see what direction you're going, you definitely want to be able to just look up in the sky and know which way north is if the stars are out so you don't have to put your drink down and drag your carcass off the deck.
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  #200 (permalink)  
Old 07-19-2007
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This has probably been said before up-thread; however, I do not have the time to read through all the pages. So:

For practical purposes in a small boat at sea, star and planet shots are quite difficult. First, you have only a fleeting minute or so two at nautical twilight to find and shoot three or more bodies while both the bodies and the horizon are visible. Second, you are on a rolling and pitching platform when you are attempting to do this. It makes much more sense to ignore the twilight shots (unless you want to practice), and concentrate on doing sun-run-suns.

Since the mid-sixties, my practice has been to shoot the sun's azimuth with the pelorus at sunrise to check the compass. Then at a convenient moment around mid-morning, shoot a sun when both it and horizon are visible. Calculate and draw an LOP on the chart and DR on to noonish. Shoot the Merpas and calculate and plot the latitude and the resulting two-point position, then DR on into the afternoon. Shoot an afternoon sun at a convenient moment. Calculate and draw an LOP on the chart and you should have a rather small cocked hat as a fix. Shoot the sun's azimuth at sunset to check the compass.
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